Author Topic: Thinking of you all  (Read 3608 times)

Fiz

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Re: Thinking of you all
« Reply #60 on: 11 Jun 2021 03:01AM »
I agree sunny. I think it right that Ollie apologise for his previous racist language and to state that it was wrong and then move on. He's still suspended from cricket and I think that is harsh.

Sunny Clouds

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Re: Thinking of you all
« Reply #61 on: 11 Jun 2021 11:02AM »
It sounds like it to me, based on my limited knowledge of the situation, and that sort of thing can rebound.  Taking stuff too far is, if I've correctly understood, part of what very understandably gets the back up of people like OtE to the extent that a word like woke ends up being used as a negative word.

For me, an absurdity I think of in this sort of discussion is something on another messageboard.  A while back, on one of various Archers boards I've posted on since the BBC one closed, someone who'd only posted on that board a couple of times suddenly popped up and said accusingly that what I'd just said wasn't what I'd said before (i.e. on another Archers board, probably the BBC one).  I was bewildered and said words to the effect that I'd thought the whole point of discussing and debating was to learn and modify our views on things.

It was a salutary reminder for me that some people - and I've no idea what proportion of people - have precious little sense they might change their views.  That then poses the question - do they debate because they think they can change other people's views or do they just want to pick a fight?
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Fiz

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Re: Thinking of you all
« Reply #62 on: 11 Jun 2021 12:32PM »
Yes I think there are people who 'debate' because they enjoy the verbal conquest rather than they hold a particular view. There's someone that I knew from a now closed forum like that whom I have not got involved with on social media because I felt the heated debate was what they were after and I dislike conflict.

I was reading about a previous cast member from the soap Neighbours who is suing the company that make the programme for racism. She is of aboriginal descent and when I read her allegations I felt they were harsh but I have learnt from them myself. One complaint was that a cast member in off screen conversations with other cast members used the term "slave driver" which she said was racist. I may have used that term myself in the past and had never thought of it as racist but I can understand that it is and I definitely wouldn't use that phrase myself in the future. I wasn't present when the cast member used the phrase but I would assume it had been used in ignorance with no racist intent. 

My son travelled to China and as part of his trip to the Embassy for his Visa he had to declare his social media account details so he deleted his Twitter account because he's quite political!  :f_laugh:

Sunny Clouds

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Re: Thinking of you all
« Reply #63 on: 11 Jun 2021 01:25PM »
China scares me for its surveillance, but then in this country we have surveillance of people, just not quite so obviously.

I still get a wry smile over those people that object to wearing masks because they think it limits their freedom, whilst I think "Good, it reduces the effectiveness of facial recognition technology."  Oh well,  when we stop wearing anti-virus face masks, we can go back to wearing 'Anonymous' masks.

We do have an extremely high concentration of CCTV cameras in the UK, higher, I believe, than most countries.  Various police forces have been experimenting with facial recognition, which worries me, not least because even computers can get it wrong.

An aspect of that that left me shaking my head wearily, was when I saw a documentary online not many years ago exploring facial recognition systems.  For instance, it touched on things like the way the systems tend to recognise European/Western people better than African & Afro-Caribbean people. 

Then it reported on something dotty - a computer programme devised by some Israeli lads, which they were selling to foreign security forces, which allegedly could pick out likely terrorists from their faces.  I looked at it.  Hmm, typically Arabic-appearance faces.  I found myself screaming at my computer "Ask your grandparents what racial stereotyping leads to!"  (For the avoidance of doubt, I'd have felt the same if someone had designed a programme stereotyping Jews and/or Israelis.)

It's as if we've come full circle to small villages where everyone knew, or thought they knew, everyone else's secrets.  Just as in small villages, that could go wrong, in modern society, it can.

And more and more and more, I cling onto the sense that our only fightback is ordinary people reaching out to neighbours, sharing kindness and tolerance at grass roots level.

But who knows, maybe there'll be strong leadership in what I'll call a new Niceness Party.
(I'm an obsessive problem-solver, so feel free to ignore any suggestions or solutions I offer, even if they sound terribly insistent.)

Sunshine Meadows

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Re: Thinking of you all
« Reply #64 on: 12 Jun 2021 11:58AM »
I hope you are having a good weekend.

This will give you a better idea of what I see on TikTok Link I guess it is linke a cross between You Tube and Twitter. I did not have any vidoes of my own for a long time and people do get that there are people who watch and comment without making their own content. 

It is just an option I have been using there is  not going to be an Ouch Too account over there. :f_smiley:

Sunny Clouds

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Re: Thinking of you all
« Reply #65 on: 12 Jun 2021 12:30PM »
I think my browser must be too out of date, because that link keeps crashing it.  I tried a different browser but the link didn't work (I was probably copying it wrong). As it happens, I'm looking to buy a new laptop, and that would be up-to-date.

So I'll sort my computer stuff then I'll try and tiktok-ify myself. 

Oh dear, and yes, I have just looked online at a couple of websites that explain how to do it.

So it's not number one priority, but it's on my list now.  It had better be worth it. :f_winkeye:
(I'm an obsessive problem-solver, so feel free to ignore any suggestions or solutions I offer, even if they sound terribly insistent.)

Sunshine Meadows

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Re: Thinking of you all
« Reply #66 on: 13 Jun 2021 03:42PM »
:xfingers: :biggrin:

Sunny Clouds

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Re: Thinking of you all
« Reply #67 on: 13 Jun 2021 04:31PM »
My notion with the laptop is this, sequentially...

Desktop computer, running on Windows 7 (no longer maintained by MS, thus vulnerable), and old Firefox (not upgraded because the current version has certain assistive add-ons I rely upon but which don't seem, from the comments below add-ons you can choose from to be as good).  I have Explorer as well, but that also seems to be out-of-date, so it works for Zoom, but I couldn't get the Tiktok link to work on it,.

Also, I spend a lot of time on my desktop doing things for pleasure but I have personal stuff (to do with sorting out my father's estate) that I do on there, and I've found myself switching on my computer and 'running away' onto the internet to blot out my distress.

So sequence...

Buy laptop
Get familiar with the way it works
Back up things onto it
Use it for the 'paperwork'
When I feel brave enough, update my desktop
Sort out the mess
Try to get on with using desktop for pleasure and laptop for 'work'
(I'm an obsessive problem-solver, so feel free to ignore any suggestions or solutions I offer, even if they sound terribly insistent.)

On the edge

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Re: Thinking of you all
« Reply #68 on: 21 Jun 2021 11:05AM »
This is the current issue with those cricket players, having said something a bit silly as a teen the righteous indignation area trawl years back to make them racists or homophobic etc and they can lose jobs and everything.  I'm pretty sure if I was some sort of celeb they would find a number of things said they could have fun with, but I never regret and never apologise, I am aware once you say something online it's there to be misinterpreted anyway.  I just aired on my blog an old B/W film of deaf children in 1954, and it was by current 'norms' now totally racist, but you have to allow for different times and attitudes, next week what we believe now will be against some grain or other too.  It's WOKE rule by the witch hunters.  We have gone too far in interpreting inclusion, diversity, acceptances,  and access, like BLM it was hijacked by the extremes and now works against us all.  Every label and tag is another nail in our equality coffin.
I agree that you have to interpret things in terms of the time in which they happened, whilst looking at how we might do things differently now.

It can be such a delicate balance, not least because if you get into the field of politics, you get such an odd mix of people doing things that some thought were ok and some thought weren't but pretended were ok etc.  E.g. the history of Black slavery in what I'll call the Western-led empires.  I believe that some White people in the past genuinely believed that  Black people didn't have the same feelings and thoughts as White people, for example, thinking that Black people didn't feel pain or exhaustion as much as White people do; whereas other White people knew and didn't care; and yet more White people didn't know but didn't care to find out.  Important to tease it out not so much for condemning or praising the past, but for moving forward.

As for 'woke', I don't like the way that term has been weaponised.  I'm not ashamed to say I'm woke.  As for BLM, I'll stand alongside people of colour who are now woke to their rights.  Incidentally, there's no need to capitalise it just because it's a dialect word.  If a British English term. i.e. woken or awake were used instead of the African American woke, would you capitalise it?  Or maybe for a better analogy, if a Gaelic or Welsh term were used by Celtic British people to say they're awake to their rights, would you capitalise it?

As someone with ethnic minority heritage, before BLM became prominent I marched on anti-racism demos and campaigned in other ways, and as far as I'm concerned, I stand united with people of colour who are having the courage to say they're now woke(n) to their rights.
I'm anti-WOKE with a vengeance really, it is endless lecturing  to people already aware and not racists or any other ist of ic.  All it has done (In my opinion), is generate more and more apathy which in the end will defeat anti-racism and all its demands and lectures.  The knee thing is a red flag to racists and during recent sporting areas clearly a lot of countries view us with annoyance doing it all the time.   Italy wanted to know what the English footy team was playing at when they took the knee yesterday, Hungary/Croatia and many other EU countries won't do it.  

Using a scatter gun and hoping it only hits just one area of view amidst a dozen others is never going to work, you will hit the wrong people, and they get turned off and annoyed.  It makes WOKE supporters look like the Spanish Inquisition, where everyone is wrong unless others comply with them or their view, opposition would go via why is your view any more valid than mine? etc.  Like BLM it was a good idea trashed by their own extremists in hours.  BAME has been downgraded as a term too after that was weaponized, and the BBC went ga ga implementing it.   You cannot create awareness (Or equality and fair play),  with a focus group/lecture or even a law, it has to be a mutually accepted thing, clearly, this is not the response WOKE supporters are getting but ridicule and anger instead.

This was never the response either to the disability laws which still exist on paper only.

Sunny Clouds

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Re: Thinking of you all
« Reply #69 on: 21 Jun 2021 12:47PM »
This is the current issue with those cricket players, having said something a bit silly as a teen the righteous indignation area trawl years back to make them racists or homophobic etc and they can lose jobs and everything.  I'm pretty sure if I was some sort of celeb they would find a number of things said they could have fun with, but I never regret and never apologise, I am aware once you say something online it's there to be misinterpreted anyway.  I just aired on my blog an old B/W film of deaf children in 1954, and it was by current 'norms' now totally racist, but you have to allow for different times and attitudes, next week what we believe now will be against some grain or other too.  It's WOKE rule by the witch hunters.  We have gone too far in interpreting inclusion, diversity, acceptances,  and access, like BLM it was hijacked by the extremes and now works against us all.  Every label and tag is another nail in our equality coffin.
I agree that you have to interpret things in terms of the time in which they happened, whilst looking at how we might do things differently now.

It can be such a delicate balance, not least because if you get into the field of politics, you get such an odd mix of people doing things that some thought were ok and some thought weren't but pretended were ok etc.  E.g. the history of Black slavery in what I'll call the Western-led empires.  I believe that some White people in the past genuinely believed that  Black people didn't have the same feelings and thoughts as White people, for example, thinking that Black people didn't feel pain or exhaustion as much as White people do; whereas other White people knew and didn't care; and yet more White people didn't know but didn't care to find out.  Important to tease it out not so much for condemning or praising the past, but for moving forward.

As for 'woke', I don't like the way that term has been weaponised.  I'm not ashamed to say I'm woke.  As for BLM, I'll stand alongside people of colour who are now woke to their rights.  Incidentally, there's no need to capitalise it just because it's a dialect word.  If a British English term. i.e. woken or awake were used instead of the African American woke, would you capitalise it?  Or maybe for a better analogy, if a Gaelic or Welsh term were used by Celtic British people to say they're awake to their rights, would you capitalise it?

As someone with ethnic minority heritage, before BLM became prominent I marched on anti-racism demos and campaigned in other ways, and as far as I'm concerned, I stand united with people of colour who are having the courage to say they're now woke(n) to their rights.
I'm anti-WOKE with a vengeance really, it is endless lecturing  to people already aware and not racists or any other ist of ic.  All it has done (In my opinion), is generate more and more apathy which in the end will defeat anti-racism and all its demands and lectures.  The knee thing is a red flag to racists and during recent sporting areas clearly a lot of countries view us with annoyance doing it all the time.  Italy wanted to know what the English footy team was playing at when they took the knee yesterday, Hungary/Croatia and many other EU countries won't do it. 

Using a scatter gun and hoping it only hits just one area of view amidst a dozen others is never going to work, you will hit the wrong people, and they get turned off and annoyed.  It makes WOKE supporters look like the Spanish Inquisition, where everyone is wrong unless others comply with them or their view, opposition would go via why is your view any more valid than mine? etc.  Like BLM it was a good idea trashed by their own extremists in hours.  BAME has been downgraded as a term too after that was weaponized, and the BBC went ga ga implementing it.  You cannot create awareness (Or equality and fair play),  with a focus group/lecture or even a law, it has to be a mutually accepted thing, clearly, this is not the response WOKE supporters are getting but ridicule and anger instead.

This was never the response either to the disability laws which still exist on paper only.
I find your repeated capitalisation of woke offensive.  There's no need to shout.  Do you do that with words from other dialects & patois or just African American dialect words? 

As for the abbreviation BAME being weaponised, yes, pretty much every abbreviation or term that people use as a descriptor for a group that is disadvantaged gets denigrated and thrown back in their faces.  It's the oldest trick in the linguistic book to turn a word used to describe a group/category of people into an insult thrown back at them.
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Sunny Clouds

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Re: Thinking of you all
« Reply #70 on: 21 Jun 2021 01:51PM »
I'm assuming that since after my original query as to why you were shouting the word woke you continued to do so, it's not just a problem with your autocorrect or something, you are choosing to scream out that one word, but I don't recall your shouting other words you don't like, just that one word. 

Because it's dialect?  I ask myself whether you would shout bostin back at me if I said I felt that way about something you agree with.  Because of the politics?  I wonder whether if I said I'm patriotic, you'd shout patriotic back at me in capital letters.

So what makes woke different?  What makes an African American dialect word worth shouting when you don't shout any other words?  Maybe because you've worked out that it causes distress when you do so?  That's' the most logical explanation.

And taking into account what else you've said, including your apparent dislike of the abbreviation BAME, seemingly for its concept not for the specific words chosen that it's an abbreviation for, and considering that one of the three reasons why I've stopped posting on the other messageboard I've been posting on for many, many years is the ongoing tirade of disparaging stereotypes of people of my heritage, I've finally had to accept today that in many ways this country is going backwards not forwards when it comes to equality.

I knew it, but didn't want to accept it.
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Sunshine Meadows

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Re: Thinking of you all
« Reply #71 on: 21 Jun 2021 04:57PM »
Woke means being conscious of racial discrimination in society and other forms of oppression and injustice. In mainstream use, woke can also more generally describe someone or something as being “with it.”

The word woke does not need to be capitalised and in my opinion is showing bad energy on OTE's part.

I have been struggling over the use of the word 'coloniser' to describe white people and the more I go around the house and over hill and dale in my thought process I keep coming back to the fact that people with bad intentions are going to hijack the word coloniser and make it into something it was not intended to be. Worse still then other people start to use the term coloniser in a way that the right are going to define as a racial slur.

As OtE has shown it becomes about shouting and not discussion. 

The idea that black people were thought of as animals to be worked is horrifying to me but then I buy things from companies that treat there workers poorly so I am a hypocrite. The fact is though that if I were able bodied I would be one of those low paid ill used workers.

Sunny,

I hope you get your ne laptop soon, and it is worth getting a external hard drive just to automatically back up the back up if it is important paperwork.

Sunshine Meadows

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Re: Thinking of you all
« Reply #72 on: 21 Jun 2021 05:03PM »
ps I just had a extra thought, does that fact words like woke and coloniser were used in good faith only to be hijack take away from the initial value and intent of the words?

Sunny Clouds

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Re: Thinking of you all
« Reply #73 on: 21 Jun 2021 07:24PM »
I was going to post something like "Sorry I lost it earlier" then I stopped myself, thinking, how have I ended up feeling I need to apologise for feeling upset over something like this?

I know sometimes it can seem people go over the top, but if you had a child that had been bullied a lot and you were trying to help it, would it matter more whether the child used what some see as the 'wrong words' as it said it wanted to be treated fairly, or would it matter more whether you could rearrange things a bit to help it?

The sense that people feel angry over others who get a rawer deal asking for equality, and over others supporting them in that makes me think of the Spinners' song Kick the Cat.

The gist of it is that in our society, you have to know who's above you and who's below, and that if you've no one else below you, kick the cat.

I'm not uncomfortable saying I have white privilege. The way I usually put  it is "When I walk down the street, you don't 'see' me."  On the other hand, a very close relative of mine has been on the wrong end of some very, very nasty racist prejudice by officialdom, which I haven't.

Disadvantage is very multi-layered.
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Sunny Clouds

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Re: Thinking of you all
« Reply #74 on: 22 Jun 2021 10:02PM »
ps I just had a extra thought, does that fact words like woke and coloniser were used in good faith only to be hijack take away from the initial value and intent of the words?
I will now express a view of political linguistics that is from the perspective of a multilingual left-winger.

In my opinion, as a generality, right-wing linguistic trend-setters are far, far better than left-wing linguistic trend-setters at taking a word used by people and movements whose views they oppose and distorting the meaning and then turning them into insults.

In my opinion, as a generality, they are also better at taking general words and adding political meaning to them that align with their views.

Note that I am not saying that it is a one-way thing, just that linguistic influencers on the right seem to be generally better at it than those on the left.

One way in which those on the left sometimes do well at it is turning denigrating insult terms for racial or social groups into badges of pride.  

Taking away your opponent's vocabulary is a very savvy tactic and it also goes beyond right-wing versus left-wing.
(I'm an obsessive problem-solver, so feel free to ignore any suggestions or solutions I offer, even if they sound terribly insistent.)