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Talk / Re: The daft aspects of isolating
« Last post by On the edge on 27 Aug 2021 07:52PM »
Regarding flu, the scientists mightn't know what all this year's variants are, but not everyone stayed home last year, and of those that did, there were those that were in group settings where there were clusters of cases.  Flu bugs went round some places of work as they always do and in other places where people congregate.  So there will still be some variants that can be included in this year's flu jab.

I don't understand the objection to having two different vaccines together, but if you feel uncomfortable about it, given that flu and covid vaccines are currently given separately, I don't see it as very difficult to have them separately.  (I want to call covid vaccines sars-cov-2 vaccines because I think covid in a general sense, but I know perfectly well it won't be long before my brain adapts.)  If you usually get them via your GP and they for some reason want you to have both together, what about getting one of them earlier elsewhere, e.g. a pharmacy?  Or is that less of an option where you are? 

As I sit here, I realise I'm pretty spoilt where I am in terms of access to things.  A couple of days ago I had a routine scan and was offered three different locations.  I popped into a supermarket yesterday and was offered a lateral flow test pack as I walked in, and also asked if I'd got anyone living with me I wanted them for.  I can get a flu jab from several local pharmacies and there's more than one place I can get my covid vaccine. 

As for the going back two or three times a year, if you mean for top-ups, I can see that that could be annoying both for those trying to fit it in around other things in their lives, and for those trying to administer them all.  On the other hand, lots of people out there go for regular appointments with a doctor or nurse for various blood tests and/or jabs more than once a year, so it can become a habit that seems less intrusive over time.  I get used to various tests at different times during the year, although I was discombobulated this year when my annual 'be grilled by the GP' session arrived in the form of an unexpected phone call when I was asleep.  (No, the time wasn't unreasonable, my sleep pattern is.)  Fortunately he's got a distinctive voice and is very switched on to patients having a knee jerk "Is this a scam call?" mental reaction.

There are so many complex issues for us to take as we weigh up the options, aren't there?


According to the welsh updates today they aren't ruling out restrictions again in 3 weeks as infection rates have soared.  I don't want 2 jabs at the same time, it hasn't been tested as safe yet.  I will have one at a time 'maybe' I need my GP to explain the issues properly and not just tote the state line, he will be getting the 3rd degree from me.  Unfortunately and unlike yourself the NHS here including GP's is practically inaccessible still, you cannot drop into the surgery or the Hospital, they are closed to patients here except for dire emergencies.  Dentists an 8-month wait maybe more etc. Minor operations years.


There is so much misinformation, just because some things are OK in one area is no guide to it being the same anywhere else, it is a postcode lottery and then some currently.  The lockdowns started over 18 months ago in the NHS, they are still in virtual lockdown and we are getting dire warnings by the medical staff of a dual epidemic of the Flu and Covid again.


I don't think there was enough exposure to the usual flu this year because of the lockdown.  They are asking people to support many vulnerable here who are still afraid to leave their homes. Such people are getting scant empathy from annoying others who tell them to get a grip etc.   The government response is 'Covid is over'. Erm... not!
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Talk / Re: The daft aspects of isolating
« Last post by Sunny Clouds on 27 Aug 2021 03:57PM »
Regarding flu, the scientists mightn't know what all this year's variants are, but not everyone stayed home last year, and of those that did, there were those that were in group settings where there were clusters of cases.  Flu bugs went round some places of work as they always do and in other places where people congregate.  So there will still be some variants that can be included in this year's flu jab.

I don't understand the objection to having two different vaccines together, but if you feel uncomfortable about it, given that flu and covid vaccines are currently given separately, I don't see it as very difficult to have them separately.  (I want to call covid vaccines sars-cov-2 vaccines because I think covid in a general sense, but I know perfectly well it won't be long before my brain adapts.)  If you usually get them via your GP and they for some reason want you to have both together, what about getting one of them earlier elsewhere, e.g. a pharmacy?  Or is that less of an option where you are? 

As I sit here, I realise I'm pretty spoilt where I am in terms of access to things.  A couple of days ago I had a routine scan and was offered three different locations.  I popped into a supermarket yesterday and was offered a lateral flow test pack as I walked in, and also asked if I'd got anyone living with me I wanted them for.  I can get a flu jab from several local pharmacies and there's more than one place I can get my covid vaccine. 

As for the going back two or three times a year, if you mean for top-ups, I can see that that could be annoying both for those trying to fit it in around other things in their lives, and for those trying to administer them all.  On the other hand, lots of people out there go for regular appointments with a doctor or nurse for various blood tests and/or jabs more than once a year, so it can become a habit that seems less intrusive over time.  I get used to various tests at different times during the year, although I was discombobulated this year when my annual 'be grilled by the GP' session arrived in the form of an unexpected phone call when I was asleep.  (No, the time wasn't unreasonable, my sleep pattern is.)  Fortunately he's got a distinctive voice and is very switched on to patients having a knee jerk "Is this a scam call?" mental reaction.

There are so many complex issues for us to take as we weigh up the options, aren't there?
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Talk / Re: The daft aspects of isolating
« Last post by On the edge on 27 Aug 2021 10:24AM »
Unlike the TB vaccine, the Covid vaccines created to date don't offer lifelong protection. It's being discovered currently how many months immunity protection is gained from them
 I don't think it's to do with variants, the Pfizer appears as effective with all of them. They're starting off a new round of vaccinations in September starting with the most vulnerable so I assume group one. I was group four. No idea whether I still will be now that I am not considered to have adrenal insufficiency.


The current case numbers in my area is the highest that there has ever been which worries me. But hospitals are not overwhelmed so these cases are for the most part milder than they were.


Yes our country should have gone into Lockdown from other countries but that would have reduced income to the government and money is the most important issue to the cons don't you know.


I gather only one vaccination has ever proven 100%?  The MMR is reported to be 99.7% effective but has its doubters from the autistic community.  The reality is vaccine developers and the state infer higher effectiveness than what is actual, because of the fear people will refuse them otherwise.  If any are near 85-95% then that is good enough.  If we are picky then we focus on the 5% for whom it failed and disastrously and resent being acceptable 'collateral damage'.


We demand all sorts of cures and protection now as a right and a norm, we cannot really know to what extent our bodies will cope with it all until something happens.  Pfizer is the best of the lot really, they had to move fast with research and development and did well, but Covid moved faster like the flu, and mutates rapidly so always one step or two ahead of us playing catch up.


The next round of jabs I am uncertain about will we have the same again when they know 6 months its effectiveness wanes?  The Covid jab was developed for a strain that wasn't Delta, which is now the current dominant strain.  Then they suggest double jabs of the Covid and Flu together.  Personally, I would refuse a double jab and want more assurances the Covid top-up is more effective and longer-lasting.


We cannot keep going back 2 or 3 times a year.  Covid and Flu continue to change, and the vaccines aren't.  We don't know about the usual flu because we weren't exposed to it last year, this means updating that vaccine is experimental and based on outdated data.  Exposure is also very high now because restrictions are less.  Like most, I am dreading winter and the NHS is already in its own lockdown regardless what everyone else is doing.


Reading online I just see concerns and those making them under relentless attack as whiners or worse, by others who live in dread of lockdowns again, yes we need people in work and the taxes,  I just wonder who is going to pay the real price for it.  A month ago I was fairly confident in the protection 2 jabs gave me, now I am less confident and uncertain.
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Talk / Re: The daft aspects of isolating
« Last post by Fiz on 27 Aug 2021 08:32AM »
Unlike the TB vaccine, the Covid vaccines created to date don't offer lifelong protection. It's being discovered currently how many months immunity protection is gained from them
 I don't think it's to do with variants, the Pfizer appears as effective with all of them. They're starting off a new round of vaccinations in September starting with the most vulnerable so I assume group one. I was group four. No idea whether I still will be now that I am not considered to have adrenal insufficiency.


The current case numbers in my area is the highest that there has ever been which worries me. But hospitals are not overwhelmed so these cases are for the most part milder than they were.


Yes our country should have gone into Lockdown from other countries but that would have reduced income to the government and money is the most important issue to the cons don't you know.
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Talk / Re: The daft aspects of isolating
« Last post by Sunny Clouds on 26 Aug 2021 11:04PM »
I agree with you that the internet isn't an adequate substitute for live contact.  At the same time, if used wisely, it can be a fantastic way of interacting, a much faster way than old fashioned letters and libraries.  Obviously, letters and libraries still have their place, it's a question of using the internet as an extra resource, not losing other resources.

That being said, so very many people have been isolated for so very long.  I don't mean the pandemic, I mean people stuck in their homes who can't get out and about physically or financially or who lack friends and family and don't know where to start with finding them.

I get lonely and I depend very heavily on my phone.  No, not a smartphone, a landline.  My hearing aids increase volume but reduce clarity, but my landline has just the right pitch balance for me.  I have friends I can communicate with so much better that way.  Actually, as I type that, something suddenly occurs to me - my landline is a dect phone - if I invite an old friend round into my garden, we could take two handsets out and chat on them to each other.  Less lipreading and guesswork for me!
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Talk / Re: The daft aspects of isolating
« Last post by On the edge on 26 Aug 2021 07:27PM »
Lol I got bored recently and decided to clear out the fridge and food cupboards, just as well, I found tins of fruit from 2005/2007, ham from  2015 that could have walked out on its own, perhaps I am immune from botulism who knows!  As regards vaccines, I was wondering at what point does our body start rejecting them? we have jabs for everything from birth to death really and for the mutations, not counting the ones we take for holidays abroad etc.  Someone must have done some survey that suggests we are reaching a limit to what the body can tolerate and build immunity to? Our bodies are wonderful things but are we asking too much of it?


200 years ago hardly anyone here would have reached 50.  In S Wales where they invented Iron and steel smelting, the average life span for workers in the foundry was 35, cholera was a norm as was smallpox.  I worked in Merthyr Tydfil alongside my works was an old graveyard and most in it died of smallpox and graves were filled 3 at a time in each one.  When it rained we could see the tops of coffins exposed.


Vaccination is wonderful but herd immunity was pretty non-extant there by all accounts. I'm sure the net is a wonderful thing when isolation is a norm as it was with /is with covid, but the issue is that the net is a TOOL, it is never a replacement for human contact, and people today are justifying their own isolation by stating the have a phone and so can contact and see via video anyone any time, why am I NOT buying that?


People need people, well I do anyway, isolation isn't fun and can never be justified simply because the issue really is, that most have lost confidence trying to make the effort.  If you still feel part of the world because you can phone, I'd think that is fine in moderation but not as a be-all, or end-all.  I've never actually done a selfie or put my child photos online, how many other sensible people are like me I wonder.
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Talk / Re: The daft aspects of isolating
« Last post by Sunny Clouds on 25 Aug 2021 10:41PM »
Herd immunity in the traditional sense has been crucial for survival, but I think you're right, even where it's effective, you're still safer if you're fitter.

There's some indication that Spanish flu had been around for a while, mutating and mutating before it really took off.  A few years back, researchers traced it back to Kansas, but now there are indications it may go back further, as they trace back the mutations from a horse disease and maybe a bird disease.  Seriously.

However, if a disease can't happen to mutate the way it needs to before killing too many people, it dies itself.  A lucky parasite, be it a virus or a mite or a worm, manages not to kill its host.

Our immune systems vary so much.  I personally believe we're in a mess having first overloaded them with so many diseases from round the world as generations from around the world intermingled with people from other parts of the world, then tried to fight the consequent spread of disease by going the other way with hygiene, and still struggle to find an optimal balance.

I want to believe that the effects sars-cov-2 has on the immune system will trigger lots of positive research.  It's difficult because you know how negative I get, so partly I think that if budget holders and insurers can write off longer term problems as not 'real' or whatever, they will.  Yet people are networking online, including doctors and researchers who've had covid-19, especially those with long covid, who are exploring issues relating to the apparent links, for instance, between atopy (having allergies) and developing long covid, and also interacting with people in the ME/CFS community.  Exploring the interconnected aspects of our immune systems.  I daren't scroll back up to see how repetitive I'm probably being.

So many other things to be looked at.  But how long before links between higher death rates and conditions such as obesity and diabetes will be used to imply "It's their own fault they died" rather than triggering more research into the various immune-related factors involved in obesity.  For instance, there's the issue of how it can be the case that when two people eat the same number of calories, one may make and store loads of fat whilst the other doesn't.  There's been shown to be an influence of gut microbiome.  Whether you've got more firmicutes or more bacteroidites makes a difference to fat storage.

What on earth am I on about?  Well, if a link has been shown between gut bacteria and obesity in some people, then it's logical to ask whether there's any influence in terms of things like immune system, inflammation etc.  But will anyone research the link between not just obesity and severe covid-19, but the link between other things associated with obesity and severe covid-19?

I need to cling onto the belief that whilst a lot of politicians, insurers, investors etc. have their own interests to pursue (if it makes them money, they're interested, if it doesn't, they're not) there are people out there researching, developing, learning, sharing.

If you're looking at what to stock up on, and can afford it, I've found German government standard info on general prepping (i.e. their pre-pandemic info), which includes food as well as other stuff to help you cope with things like floods, storms etc. very good.  The Church of the Latter Day Saints publishes good info on which foods keep longest.

My embarassment with keeping spares is that I realised recently I hadn't been rotating properly.  I'm now using up some stocks of tinned food with 2020 best before dates, and a few items with 2019 dates.  Obviously you have to be very careful what you use that's that old.
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Talk / Re: The daft aspects of isolating
« Last post by On the edge on 25 Aug 2021 08:24PM »
Herd immunity probably only works with the fittest.  That was the point made really.  They had the ultimate 'herd immunity' attempt when the Spanish flu erupted 1918. 500m contracted it. no vaccine and 50m died. Some people have a natural immunity it isn't known how this happens.  We are told the usual and annual flu has actually killed far more than covid ever did despite a jab every year and still does and we may not have increased immunity from that because we were isolated last year. 


I'm no doom monger but worried.  I'm a bit concerned at the open house approach now having just read both my jabs are already less effective than 6 months ago.  I can only assume it is because the vaccine was not developed to counter the delta strain and the original version mutated while development was going on. We were caught with our pants down really, we should have isolated the UK, like New Zealand did.  Instead, Boris invited Indian politicians to London, 4 of whom brought the delta version with them.


I fully expect a lockdown before Xmas again so stocking up before the shelves empty again. Missing my Mac milkshakes and garlic lol Is that even news?
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Talk / Re: National Shortage of blood testing vials
« Last post by Sunny Clouds on 25 Aug 2021 05:36PM »
But it's brilliant!  Surely a minister or SPAD has got a girlfriend or ex-schoolfriend or fellow elite club member that can sub-contract to a company based in a different tax jurisdiction that has at least a month's experience sourcing bicycle lamps?  They'd be bound to be willing to take on a contract for the work for a measly sum of £10billion or so. 

And look at all the extra money the taxpayer's going to be saving by merging PIP with UC.  The people no longer eligible for what is currently a non-means-tested benefit will be given a wonderful incentive to pull their socks up and no longer be disabled, which, as an added bonus, means most of them won't need lots of routine blood tests any more.   Just one of many wonderful cost-saving initiatives by the government to ensure their friends can make a well-deserved profit.

Then just a teensy bit more NHS privatisation and these super-duper pandemic contracts will be paid for.  With a special deal that will involve the taxpayer paying instalments of accrued interest for only three or four generations.

(Sorry.  I'm having one of those days.)
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Talk / Re: National Shortage of blood testing vials
« Last post by KizzyKazaer on 25 Aug 2021 05:17PM »
"You couldn't make it up" comes to mind - the world really is going to hell in a handcart ..
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