Ouch Too

Forum => News and Current Affairs. => Topic started by: JLR2 on 17 Jul 2021 08:09PM

Title: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: JLR2 on 17 Jul 2021 08:09PM
The guy has been in office for what amounts to a matter of days and already, seeing the bad news that's heading his way due to Johnson's gamble with reopening England to more Covid19 infection and probably more dangerous mutations of the virus, Javid's decided to hide himself away from any prying media he doesn't feel friendly enough by following the tried and tested, 'Oh I've tested positive' or 'I've got Covid19' fairy tale used by his predecessor and by freezer loving PM Johnson.

Convenient is it not that Javid should test positive for Covid19 just as Johnson's "Freedom Day" arrives?  For a supposedly intelligent man who will have witnessed already what has allegedly happened to both Johnson and Hancock so far as catching Covid19 goes one might have expected him, given his new position as "Secretary of State for Health", to be hyper careful not to become infected. Not only for the sake of his family and his own health but for the millions in England who are suffering him as their SoS for Health.

Naw it is, I suspect, another lie from a government which would not recognise the truth if it bit them on the ar..backside.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 17 Jul 2021 08:36PM
I think you're entirely correct in thinking that he'd be prepared to do something fake to stay out of the public eye, but I remain open as to whether this is faked or whether it's genuine and happened to occur at the right time to save him finding a different excuse.

I don't like how I feel about this, because a bit of me hopes that this is genuine and that it leaves him with a very nasty case of long covid.  I don't like it when I realise I'm wishing nasty things on people.  On the other hand, I'm just wishing Johnson & his mob would die, not, as they are, out there actually killing people.  

Sadly, I think that the government wants lots of 'vulnerable' people to die, because it wants lots of 'expensive' people to die.  Look how much could be cut off the benefits budget if loads of 'benny scroungers' (substitute your preferred nasty slur) dropped dead.  And more to the point, look how much more profitable a privatised, insurance-based NHS would be with fewer elders and disabled people expecting lots of care.

Ah, but long covid.  Gosh, they've been slow off the mark with branding it 'all in the mind' etc.  You know, the stuff they fling at people with ME/CFS.  They're going to have to get their act together on that one to keep the private companies taking over the NHS happy.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: JLR2 on 17 Jul 2021 08:55PM
Sunny, how dare you!!!   you're well on your way to giving me nightmares :f_laugh:    As I was reading your posting there I had an 'orrible thought cross my mind, 'What would happen if Johnson decided to kill two birds with the same stone by moving 'The Smirk' from the Home Office to run the DWP with IDS as her assistant?  One of the first fitness to work assessment tests she would introduce would be a full blown Royal Marine Commando assault course to be completed before any claimant were to be allowed to make a claim, the next test would be on ability to swim with failing to reach the French coast indicating failure (note no rescue craft would be provided and water wings would be only optional).

I've posted as I have there as I've read somewhere that the government, maybe the DWP, are disputing the seriousness of long Covid19 so far as entitlement to welfare benefits goes. Basically they are refusing to recognise it as an illness of concern so far as welfare benefit qualification is involved. Perhaps they were simply expecting anyone in employment who suffered long covid to get back to work as if they were suffering a heavy cold.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 17 Jul 2021 09:04PM
The Smirk?  Would that be preta Patel?  Oh, hang on, I'm getting my languages mixed up.  She wouldn't be a deceased evil spirit, would she?  Er, second thoughts, maybe I haven't forgotten all my Hindi...
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: JLR2 on 17 Jul 2021 09:22PM
Yes that would be to whom I am referring.

:f_yikes: :f_bleep: :f_bleep: :f_bleep:   I just lost a posting I had written.

My comments were regarding the transmitting of Covid19 from those fully vaccinated. We have been being drip fed stories or comments from be it scientists of government politicians about how they are aware of some folk still able to pass on the virus even though vaccinated. It feels a bit like gaslighting. On one hand the government announces that those fully vaccinated can travel to much of Europe without the requirement to quarantine on our return but then that hardly sits well with the changed to the rules covering France. In the case of France it appears that the B variant of the virus is virtually unaffected by, to date, the Astra Zenica vaccine, odd that this was never mentioned when the B variant was discovered, we even had the Delta variant here before any stories/news of the resistance of the B variant to the AstraZenica were to be heard being made and even then neither the scientists nor any government official or minister felt it of any great importance or at least not so important that they should show or intimate any concern about any apparent issues with the vaccine, are they hiding something?
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: JLR2 on 18 Jul 2021 09:01AM
From the web pages of the Guardian, looks like my suspicions might not be so far from the truth regarding these alleged Covid19 infections.

"Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak will not isolate after being ‘pinged’, says No 10"
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 18 Jul 2021 10:53AM
When I think  of what's going on, I just keep calling to mind the famous story of Boris' schooldays when he had a role in a play and couldn't be bothered to learn his lines, so wrote them out and stuck them on surfaces like pillars so he could read them off.

He, like so many politicians, is an odd mixture of careful planning and chance-taking.  Think of how many poorly planned, poorly thought out projects he's fronted, such as the Garden Bridge, Boris Buses etc.  Sometimes someone else picks up the plan and sorts it when he's gone, sometimes no one does.  In the meantime, his friends benefit from big fees for advising etc. and a future career for him with well-paid 'consultancies' and being in with the power crowd is guaranteed.

So if Boris is a risk-taker, why wouldn't he think it's just fine to take risks with sars-cov-2?  He's known for not having bothered to attend Cobra meetings early in the pandemic.  What else hasn't he 'learnt his lines' from?

That being said, not for nothing did the term 'lies, damned lies, and statistics' become embedded in the English language.  For instance, the 'average' person hasn't a clue about the different sorts of 'average'.  And there are other things people don't take on, not because they don't want to, but because people don't explain.  For instance, how many people actually get the gist of how it takes time to get to know a new virus?  Whilst Boris can't be bothered to learn his lines, many people out there don't even realise there are lines to learn.

No wonder there's so much scepticism about vaccines when not only have we still got the after-effects of the Wakefield MMR scandal  still frightening people (I wonder if he's yet worked out the difference between correlation and causation?) but many people, I think, don't understand that a vaccination can be partially effective.  But don't expect our government to push that message home.

I'm psyching myself up to go on a binge shop for basics.  I've already done one a couple of days ago.  Yup, stockpiling so I can keep my head low and be very picky when and where I go after 'Freedom to Endanger Others' day.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: lankou on 18 Jul 2021 02:14PM
From the web pages of the Guardian, looks like my suspicions might not be so far from the truth regarding these alleged Covid19 infections.

"Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak will not isolate after being ‘pinged’, says No 10"
They have both now backed down due to the very angry response.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: oldtone27 on 18 Jul 2021 02:22PM
I despair these people are supposed to be professional politicians yet they completely misread the situation. Not once, not twice, but continuously. They couldn't run a piss up in a brewery.

The other lot continuously criticise them, justifiably, but don't offer credible alternative policies. Just vague mumbles.

Pox on all their houses. :f_yikes:
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 18 Jul 2021 04:14PM
They are professional politicians.

Politics is a competitive business.  Getting elected is, I believe, more like winning a beauty or entertainment contest than being technically competent.

Is it always the singers with the best voices and best songs that hit the charts?  How much is down to the fashion of the time, good PR, and chance?

I could wonder how decent people ever get elected, but chance can sometimes go their way as well.

Declaration of interest - I utterly loathe Johnson and his cabinet plus other neoliberal politicians.  To me what sums up their attitude is the two-child benefits rule, which created a new offence of failing to choose the right parents, with an age of criminal responsibility of zero minus nine months, the punishment for which is the withholding of basics such as food, toiletries, clothing etc.  Murderers and rapists and terrorists don't have to rely on foodbanks.

I try to balance by deep fear of what is happening politically with a hope that people, of a range of circumstances such as social class, gender, ethnicity, age, education etc. can somehow pull together to survive.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: JLR2 on 18 Jul 2021 06:28PM
"They have both now backed down due to the very angry response"

I think they backed down because they were caught. As I've hinted previously, if not said outright, I do not believe Javid's claim to be suffering Covid19 rather it is just far more preferable to his thinking and that of the Johnson/Sunak's to hide from the media and what better excuse could they use but the same one Johnson used previously get into hiding from the media and greater British public when seeking to avoid scrutiny, the excuse being alleged Covid19 infection.

Johnson and Sunak didn't stop to think for a moment about self quarantine as they would have known of the plan to break a story (a fictional one) claiming allegedly that Javid had tested positive for Covid19 and this being so they would have known they had no need to quarantine themselves but following the reaction from the public, as you were saying Lankou, they decided it'd look better if they at least appeared to be going into quarantine. In truth all they are doing is blocking hostile media from putting them on the spot about the carnage that is going to follow over the next few weeks as "Freedum Day" opens up our hospitals to more pressure from Covid19 cases and in the course of time stretches the funeral service sector as more and more people die as a result of Johnson's gamble with the lives of the people of England. 
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 18 Jul 2021 08:14PM
Personally, I don't think whether any of the ministers have the virus or not is what matters, because I believe that they'd be equally willing to fake it or, if real, take advantage of it or not as suits them.  In other words, some think they faked it, I think I don't know, but I think what we can agree on is that they'd be prepared to lie about it if it suited them.

Analogy - when people take a view on Twin Towers, with the arguments between those that believe it was done by Al Qaeda and those that believe that it was done by the American government,  I take the view that who did it on whose authority and with who's instructions matters rather less than who would have been prepared to do it.

I believe that either side, at several levels of seniority, would have been prepared to do something involving that much death and destruction, and that belief matters more to me than the proof of who did it.

It's like when people talk about the pandemic as a 'plandemic'.  My attitude is "Why would they bother when they just had to wait for a genuine new virus outbreak to occur and take advantage of it?"  I've been very strongly influenced, I think, by Naomi Klein's book Disaster Capitalism, which I read a few years ago.  

Likewise my views on cabinet members and infection.  Since I believe that they'd be prepared to lie, whether that's saying they're not infected/in contact with an infected person or whether it's the reverse, I consider whether any of them actually is infected or incontact with an infected person is interesting but politically Likewise with our political leaders and who has or hasn't come into contact with someone infected by the virus, become infected by the virus or whatever.  I believe both that any and all members of our cabinet would be prepared to lie about it.  That includes also being prepared to lie and say they weren't infected when they were.  It works both ways.

And isolating being convenient?  Definitely. 

So I'm not saying "Oh, no, they're being truthful" I'm just saying that my beliefs that they'd be prepared to lie about this and that it's convenient don't lead me to conclude one way or another whether they're faking infection & infection-contact, or whether they're taking advantage of  it.

Thus I believe we're in general agreement.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: JLR2 on 18 Jul 2021 08:57PM
I'll believe Javid when his death certificate reads Covid19 as cause of death.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 18 Jul 2021 10:12PM
I'll believe Javid when his death certificate reads Covid19 as cause of death.

A malicious thought went through my mind when I read that.  It goes along the  lines of "Wouldn't it be lovely if he'd lied about having the virus then found he'd actually got it and then ended up with long covid and a selection of yucky symptoms."

Well, it's not wishing even as much on him as he and his colleagues are doing.  Their political actions are killing people.  I'm not killing him, just wishing he'd die.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: Fiz on 19 Jul 2021 07:09AM
I'm certain that he's tested positive for Covid. This conspiracy theory reads like the Daily Mail  :f_laugh:
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: JLR2 on 19 Jul 2021 09:18AM
Fiz, I have to say that winds me up somewhat. My 'conspiracy theory' is based simply on the strange convenience of these claims by the likes of Johnson, Hancock and now Javid as to when they are hit personally by Covid19. For Johnson his claim was made at a time when he had both run out of freezers to hide in and the press wasn't as positive for him so where better to hide but a hospital, bare in mind those charged with looking after him in that hospital were required to sign non disclosure statements to the extent that a couple of doctors refused and the only nurses we were told of looking after him were from outwith the UK and left the NHS & UK shortly after Johnson returned to Downing Street.

Hancock?  Well he had his oscar winning fake tears moment during his TV interview but his claim to have experienced Covid19 came as he wanted to push his, we are all in this together theme and in the hope of convincing folk of this he claimed his infection as proof that no one would be immune from Covid19, in other words he wanted both the sympathy of the country and the opportunity to gather some brownie points as some kind of hero minister as he fought against Covid19.

Javid?  He wanted both to earn his brownie points from his boss/master, Johnson, by bringing about a story of distraction (better known as the 'throwing a dead cat on the table' routine just as Parliament moved to recess for the summer holidays. Political programs are all but ended for this period so no facing journalists such as Marr or hard questions from be it Channel 4 news of the BBC's News Night program. His hope being, as many within government hope and expect, the memory retention of voters being so lacking they'll have forgotten all about many of these things by the time Parliament returns after recess and besides he'll be sure there will be some other concocted story filling the media's screens and newspapers.

It is for these reasons I will not believe Javid or the others have suffered from Covid19 without seeing their names engraved on the graveside headstones.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 19 Jul 2021 01:02PM
Perhaps you might both tolerate my view on 'conspiracy theories'?

This is building on my example of Twin Towers.  I'm also going to mention the use of different words.

English is a fantastic and frustrating language due to our massive vocabulary.  I'm going to throw out some other terms that could map onto 'conspiracy' off the top of my head.  You will see that they each have a different feel to them, but all relate to power & politics.

Plot, cartel, secret society, chumocracy, old boy's network, [other sort of] network, insider dealing, who you know...

To my way of thinking, the reality of the world we live in is that it's very difficult to become very powerful without  making 'connections'.  Also, I believe that it's typically, but not always, the case that those that are prepared to swap favours for favours that succeed, and those that are prepared to bend or even break the rules that succeed. 

Think of the example of getting to be prime minister of the UK.  I struggle to see how anyone could get there without making sure they'd got strong backing and keeping on the right side of those that would otherwise stop them.  That can involve backhanders and it would be difficult to stay on the right side of dodgy.  My negative views on politicians in general (rather than certain specific exceptions) are best summed up by my being a 'least worst' voter.

Looking back over history, I have no doubt in my mind but that our country's leadership has willingly done nasty things, deceitful things, murderous things.

So whilst I disagree as to any certainty that any of our cabinet members have lied about having the virus, I do think it possible that they would, and do feel that it is understandable if people reach the point of saying that those politicians lie and mislead and cheat so often that a default interpretation of what they say and do is that they're lying.

What we call 'conspiracy theories' can do a lot of harm, but they wouldn't happen if it weren't for the reality of what does happen.

I sometimes wonder whether my default view of "We don't know any more whether what they say is true and what isn't" mightn't be more sensibly replaced by "They're politicians, of course they're lying."

On the other hand, if we simply assume that someone who regularly lies is lying, we could as easily be deceived by the truth, and also looking to see whether something is true or not is precisely what some powerful people, politicians and others, rely upon.  Distraction crime.  "Look!" says the stranger.  Whilst you're wondering whether what they're pointing at is really there or whether they're lying, your purse has gone.  And then a different stranger says "Look!" and you assume they're lying and don't look, and you get run over.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: oldtone27 on 19 Jul 2021 01:14PM
I broadly agree with what you say. In human society it has always been more important 'who you know' than 'what you know'.

There is strength in numbers so one naturally gravitates towards like minded individuals, particularly those who might wield influence.

What concerns me most is those politicians who claim to male decisions on the basis of science / research or similar but then fail to publish the reasoning behind their decision. My suspicious mind wonders what secrets are they hiding?
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 19 Jul 2021 01:58PM
What secrets they're hiding?  They might not all be hiding the same secrets.

- One might not have read/listened to all that they needed to to make an informed decision.

- One might have read/listened to it but not paid attention.

- One might have read/listened to it but misunderstood, whether because they are hopeless with science and statistics or whether because they couldn't be bothered.

- One might have taken it all on board but decide not to do what would be the best for others, just the best for themselves.

It doesn't help that the science keeps changing but it's hard as a politician to say that.  Whether they're telling the truth or lying, they don't want to look like they're lying unless they really can't find another way to achieve what they want than to be seen to lie on a particular occasion, or they get caught out and have to make the best of it e.g. "No, I didn't tell the whole truth.  I didn't want to cause a panic."
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: Fiz on 19 Jul 2021 05:59PM
A theory that people are lying for whatever reason is a conspiracy theory which seems to.me what is described here in this thread. I know so many double vaccinated people who have been or are very ill with Covid that I'd be stunned if someone in the limelight didn't become someone in this fourth wave so think this story highly likely to be true. What I think is a more likely scenario is that someone in the political limelight gets Covid despite being double vaccinated and rather than be honest and state they feel/felt dreadful and wondered whether they would die, would instead release a statement stating it's like having a nasty cold and do get back to work as soon as the app tells you that you can. All to benefit the economy.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 19 Jul 2021 10:36PM
I don't see thinking of someone lying as a conspiracy theory per se, because for me the essence of a conspiracy theory is that it's a theory about a conspiracy, which requires more than one person because you can't conspire with yourself unless you're psychotic or have a split personality.

But I suppose for some people the term may have become extended to a metaphorical use?  I've not heard it used that way, but it would be pretty normal linguistic drift.

So  maybe if we're disagreeing to some extent about whether this is or isn't a conspiracy theory, it's actually just a difference between literal and extended meaning of the term?
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: Fiz on 20 Jul 2021 06:11AM
If this were true there would need to be more than one person involved. There's a team doing PCR tests on government minister's, the person who processed the test and found it to be negative would know the the minister is saying it's positive so they'd be in on it. As would in all likelihood, Boris. 

As said, given numbers are sky rocketing currently, I would be more surprised if no government ministers tested positive. They're still working, remotely having decided it would be unfair for them to be part of the daily PCR testing rathen isolating as the PVR daily testing trial is meant to be a random control trial which it wouldn't be if ministers decided to be in it! Something they didn't think through before suggesting it!
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: JLR2 on 20 Jul 2021 08:43AM
Fiz, Javid I believe felt he needed to come up with something to avoid being compared too much with Hancock so soon after taking on the job done by Hancock and so decided to announce his positive testing for Covid19. In telling the world he'd be self isolating he would be able to avoid face to face scrutiny by the media, it is so much easier to avoid argument or awkward questions if you can claim a technical problem with your digital connections isn't it.

The other day after it had been made clear by Transport for London that they were not part of this new scheme to use daily testing rather than quarantine, whilst they had applied to be a part of it they had not been accepted, we had the government's minister for vaccines repeating the lie that they were. How often do the government need to lie before folk will understand they are lying?

You know I used to wonder how it was so many of the people of Germany fell for the lies and propaganda of the Nazis in pre-war Germany, I think now I've a far better idea as the people of England are doing the same as they let Johnson's government do much the same to them.

The Scottish government in Edinburgh is not that much better in that they are now facing an official police investigation into the missing funds that were donated to be spent directly on our fighting the next campaign for the regaining of our independence and Sturgeon takes the people of Scotland for complete mugs with the SNP now claiming every penny they spend as a party is towards independence as that is the whole purpose of the SNP's existence. The donated monies for independence campaigning was allegedly ring fenced but is currently missing, least Sturgeon is neither willing or more probable able to show where the money is.

My prediction relating to the SNP issue is that Sturgeon will run before the Police come knocking on her door as they look to question her husband. Once upon a time we had in Scotland a chance to regain our independence Sturgeon is seeing to it that that will NEVER happen whilst she is leading the SNP, not a cats chance in hell of that, Sturgeon's been bought and well paid for hence Westminster's relaxation of their fears of the UK's break up. Such a break up will not happen so long as Sturgeon remains FM of Scotland, she's taken the Kings shilling and with it any hope of independence for Scotland. So it is not just the politicians in Westminster I'm distrustful/wary of, I include the leader of a political party I once once a member of.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 20 Jul 2021 10:05AM
Quote
If this were true there would need to be more than one person involved. There's a team doing PCR tests on government minister's, the person who processed the test and found it to be negative would know the the minister is saying it's positive so they'd be in on it. As would in all likelihood, Boris.
I see what you mean.  I had thought that the suggestion was that he'd faked it, e.g. by using someone else's sample, but with hindsight it would be difficult to swap samples without being caught.  I'd mentally conceptualised it as being like using my local testing centre where it would be easy to grab some used swabs and use them to cross-contaminate one's own, but he wouldn't be going to an ordinary test centre, would he?


That being so, if I were in the position of wanting to fake a test, I don't think I'd want to trust the chain of communication with lab staff, which could involve a lot of intermediaries, so I'd probably just want to get someone positive I knew to provide me with a sample, but that's still more than just him.

Mind you, when it comes to lying, I'd be more inclined overall to expect him to lie and say he hasn't got it when he has, not vice-versa.  Gosh, what sort of world do we live in where my issue isn't with whether someone in his position would lie about such things, but simply which lies he would or wouldn't tell, and which people he would or wouldn't involve in his lies?  Aargh.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 20 Jul 2021 10:24AM
Quote
The other day after it had been made clear by Transport for London that they were not part of this new scheme to use daily testing rather than quarantine, whilst they had applied to be a part of it they had not been accepted, we had the government's minister for vaccines repeating the lie that they were. How often do the government need to lie before folk will understand they are lying?
How often?  A lot of times if they are seen as generally muddle-headed and incompetent.


If a minister can't be trusted to do his homework, as it were, then lying can easily be written off as not bothering to get his facts right.

That being said, I don't see much of a moral difference.  Actively lying to the public isn't, to my way of thinking, much different from not bothering to ensure you're giving correct information, particularly where it's a matter of life or death.

The other thing is that in my opinion, the way our government has delivered information during the pandemic has been dreadful.

No, I don't watch the daily briefings.  I tried, but I found them waffly and indigestible.

The 'official' versions are apparently on the BBC website but I have yet to find on there any clear summary or even transcript.  If you rummage around hard enough on the .gov website you can find the small print but that's a pain. 

For me personally, the clearest summaries have been on Reach, whose journalists or probably interns are getting their clickbait by the oft-used approach of taking information from elsewhere and producing a readable summary.  Usually that's in the form of summarising news stories from elsewhere or extracting the (supposedly) interesting quotes from an online discussion.  ("An argument broke out on Mumsnet/Twitter/somewhere or other today.  One poster said...whilst another responded that...")

But if I have to rummage around to find a digestible, clear version of what the government's saying, then how many people just don't grasp what garbled twaddle is being spewn forth?

I used to think in terms of having political leaders that don't even understand the difference between continuous and continuous, and can't see that 'three times a day' and 'continuous' are directly contradictory, but now think they want the message to be confusing so they can blame the public for whatever they find convenient to blame them for.

I wonder whether our government would ever be good at putting out clear lies?  Some ministers would use that technique instead of the Boris muddled vague approach.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: JLR2 on 20 Jul 2021 03:44PM
Just a quick wee note to say, if Johnson told those in either the media or No10 he had tested positive for Covid19 who would challenge him to show who tested him, where he was tested and to show proof of his claims to have been tested?  Substitute a hospital bedroom/ward for a company's freezer and you have Johnson where he wanted to be, in hiding.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 20 Jul 2021 04:40PM
I can't disagree with that.

Mind you, this morning I mapped on something Fiz said about whether people involved in testing would be prepared to be involved in faking it... apparently in France, there are clinics offering fake vaccination cards.  So there are clinicians willing to be dodgy about the pandemic for money.

But it also maps onto what you're saying.  Would anyone actually check whether a test was actually done and if so, where?  If there's dishonesty, it could be anywhere along the chain.

What a minefield.

I still think the short answer for me is that I'll probably never feel certain as to whether Boris and his chums are telling the truth or not, I just know I can't trust them and that they'll say what suits them.

I know that politicians are probably never entirely honest.  I can't see how they can get into power and stay there if they are.  And if you're too nice and honourable, you'll probably get accused of all sorts of stuff you can't effectively defend yourself against unless you're prepared to be as nasty as your opponents.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: JLR2 on 20 Jul 2021 10:29PM
Sunny, listening/watching Laura K's interview with Cummings earlier tonight I was struck by two issues, one was that she was suggesting to Cummings that just because Johnson had become PM that he, Cummings, should be sort of in awe of a Prime Minister and more or less fall over himself to agree to whatever a PM said.

The other issue that stood out for me was far more serious. Cummings said in the early part of the interview that the reason he had taken his family to Durham because of security threats to him and his family at the home they lived in in London, he spoke of speaking with the PM about these threats and the need to get out of London and when the suggestion of moving to a safe home was made he, Cummings, said he felt it would be better to take his family to his father's farm in Durham and so that is what he did.

However the question surely needs to be asked, if his London home was in such danger of attack or he or his family were in real danger from these alleged threats he has alluded to, then why on earth would he return to the same home?   Was there a specific threat, perhaps one known to the Police and which had been neutralised through the arrest and imprisonment of the person or persons making such a threat?  If not then the same threats would still be ongoing and his claim to have fled London due to concerns about any such threats absolutely meaningless.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 20 Jul 2021 10:46PM
Your arguments make sense to me.

For me, the big flaw in Cummings' various explanations of the Durham trip is that there were witnesses that saw him walking somewhere that was inconsistent with any explanation he gave in the past and would also be inconsistent with this latest explanation.

If he had a valid reason to go to Durham, whatever that reason may have been, that would not excuse his travelling around when he got there and going for a walk out and about.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: JLR2 on 20 Jul 2021 11:13PM
Sunny, Cummings claimed during the interview that Johnson had asked him to return to Westminster as soon as possible if he could and then went on to explain his trip to the castle area, testing his fitness to drive, but following this he did return to his home in London before heading back to Downing Street as requested by Johnson (according to Cummings story)  but this still leaves the question about the original reasons regarding an alleged threat of harm to him or his family being proffered now in explanation for his breaking of lockdown on very shaky dubious ground.

Were I a journalist at either the BBC or Sky I'd be looking to ask Cummings live on air about these alleged threats that simply vanished a few weeks after he had in some respects it could be argued fled London in fear of his life. Can it be Cummings is asking us to believe that following his return to London there were no more threats to his wellbeing?   Is he trying to suggest he was a much loved resident living without concern or fear at his London home, the one he had fled from even though both he and his wife were suffering from the Covid19 virus?  Pull the other on Dom, it's got bells on it.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 20 Jul 2021 11:58PM
I struggle to find any explanation for what he did that didn't involve dishonesty on his part.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: Fiz on 21 Jul 2021 07:15AM
Yes Cummings claim's are ridiculous and don't make sense. As much sense as driving your loved ones miles to test your eyesight. He clearly has such little respect for the intelligence of the British public that he'll say anything to try and get out of trouble and somehow thinks people will believe him. I think he's vile. All this Boris vitreol he's spewing at the moment. Some of or much of it may be true but because Cummings is a compulsive liar we can't take his word for any of it. He's obviously not heard the cry wolf story and hasn't realised that lieing so much means people won't believe him now even if he is telling the truth. I don't know which constituents are unfortunate enough to have Cummings as their MP but I do hope that he gets voted out at the next election. I suspect though that wherever it is, it's a safe Tory seat that even a compulsive liar would win. 

The Covid isolation period has been shortened twice since the pandemic began so Javid should be out and about soon. He's been doing zoom meetings. Is it 10 days from first Covid+ test? Thankfully not had it myself so am unaware but my latest double vaccinated friend to get Covid seemed to be out and about 10 days after her test.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: JLR2 on 21 Jul 2021 08:41AM
"I don't know which constituents are unfortunate enough to have Cummings as their MP"  Fiz, Cummings has never been an MP, he was part of a group of advisors Johnson brought into Downing Street and though whilst not apparently the boss of these advisors he was the one marked out by the media as the one of most influence on Johnson.

Given the way/manner the government are swatting away much of what Cummings is putting out against Johnson without anything damaging the polling ratings amongst voters who support this government I am beginning to get the feeling we could be being fooled yet again. Might/Could it be that Cummings is actually working with Johnson and his government by providing 'Dead cats' to throw on the table whenever the government needs another distraction causing talking point?   Perhaps this is why during the whole interview with Laura K, Cummings had to use his right hand nearest to the TV cameras to mask the smirk/grin on his face, he just could not keep a straight face something we see with Johnson when he is aware on live TV that what he is saying is so clearly devoid of truth or fact that no person of reasonable intelligence could fail to see it for what it is.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 21 Jul 2021 09:48AM
Quote
I don't know which constituents are unfortunate enough to have Cummings as their MP
He's not an MP, he was a Spad (special adviser).  A Spad is echnically a civil servant, but just while he's in that job, not as a normal career.


(Spad seems to be spelt with umpteen variations of upper and lower case such as SpAD, Spad, spad.)

What I find difficult in relation to this sort of thing is the multi-way variation over repeated liars.

Some are very able, planning their lies, making them consistent, keeping track of them.  The sort where we get documentaries/films about how many decades it took to expose a criminal etc.

Then there are those that are random but know it.  We tend to see Johnson as like that.

Then there are those that come to believe some or all of their lies.  If that seems odd, look back at your life's memories - can you be sure that they're all accurate?  

And there are those that don't remember everything and randomly fill in the gaps and then are sort of stuck.

Etc.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: Fiz on 21 Jul 2021 09:51AM
Wowsers I had no idea he was "just an advisor" and to have such massive political influence without having even been voted in is atrocious! Why hasn't he been sacked?! He should be down the job centre by now. 

I agree it's weird that Boris is just ignoring everything he's saying currently. Possibly he's aware that people know Cummings to be a liar so everything he says is taken with a litre of salt. I'm sure that some of what Cummings says is true but given his pathological nature it's impossible to tell what. 

So much corruption in our current government.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 21 Jul 2021 10:36AM
Wowsers I had no idea he was "just an advisor" and to have such massive political influence without having even been voted in is atrocious! Why hasn't he been sacked?! He should be down the job centre by now....
Spads have been part of our political system for a long time.  It's just that usually they keep their heads down.  That being said, in the long term, I think quite a few PMs and other ministers have made a lot of use of senior career civil servants of the 'Sir Humphrey' variety.

I think also that except when there are scandals over who paid whom, we tend not to notice a lot of the network of people who advise and support politicians, such as where an MP uses their spouse/partner or other relative or close friend as a 'secretary' or 'PA' vel sim.  Usually it only hits the headlines if the pay's a bit high. 

Parts of the right wing media and politicians make a right to-do over the influence of senior trades union officials over the Labour party, which first grew as a trades union party.   But what about the influence over politicians, for example, of the head of their local chamber of commerce, or business association?

The reality is that if you want to get somewhere in politics, you need financial backers, strategists, PR advisers and campaigners etc.  Most very successfully keep their head down, though.  I don't think it helped Cummings to do so that he's visually distinct.  The media would probably have focussed less on him if looked and behaved more nondescript, maybe short and tidy hair, boring grey suit, smart but not too brisk gait, dark briefcase etc.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: lankou on 21 Jul 2021 10:45AM

Spads
Is there a cure for that?
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 21 Jul 2021 10:51AM

Spads
Is there a cure for that?
Sadly not.  You think you've got rid of it, then another one pops up.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: JLR2 on 21 Jul 2021 10:52AM
There's something about the timings of many of these stories that has me suspicious of quite what is going on.

Johnson knows most of the country know fine that he is a liar, heck he even has the P45's to prove it but he is also very well aware that holding an eighty seat majority at Westminster the position of the Tory Party is not under any real threat to its hold on power.

We are currently some years away from the next general election and the enquiry into the Covid19 pandemic handling by Johnson's government will not even begin till next year so the chances are Johnson will make as much money, his PM wage and the like, whilst planning his post PM job for when he decides he's had enough. Knowing many Tory MPs in government will say and do whatever it takes to hold onto their jobs (much as Republican senators in the US support Trump in order to secure Trump supporters loyalty no matter what Trump says or does)  so there is not a high chance of any Tory MP challenging Johnson.

I expect Johnson will decide either to quit UK politics and return to the land of his birth, perhaps to retake his US citizenship and make a run for President  :f_laugh: or he'll take a taste of how the country is leaning before deciding if he'd stand a good chance of surviving any inquiry into Covid19 and being re-elected, if he feels he'd be re-elected he may well go for that. When Blair handed the keys to No10 to Brown he had recognised Labour were facing a real chance of defeat in the up coming general election and felt it better to get out as an undefeated PM as against one who had lost such an election, the difference between the two situations could be worth hundreds of thousands of pounds post UK politics for him.

By the time of the next general election both Johnson and Cummings know much of what we are talking about today and no doubt over coming weeks will be have been forgotten by whatever the news of the day is then, this is perhaps why we are hearing all this now and if it begins to look like it will not be forgotten in time for the election Johnson will be gone having taken that taste of the political weather I referred to earlier.

Cummings, I feel, has a strategy to be in a position to make a rapid return to Downing Street if he can get Gove into position as leader of the Tory Party, this is maybe why he has markedly less to say critical of Gove.

I could be wrong :f_smiley:
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: oldtone27 on 21 Jul 2021 10:54AM
I broadly agree with Sunny Clouds. He did sort of get sacked, but people like him find it quite easy to earn a living ditching dirt, fact or fiction. In politics there is usually a lot of dirt to ditch.

However, I don't think its in Cummings' nature to be a shrinking violet. He likes to be centre of attention and court controversy. for example he when said the Civil Service should recruit more weirdos and misfits if I remember correctly.

I would agree the CS needs people from outside the establishment and it probably has a few, but I think progress is still very linked to the old boy network. Who, not what, you know.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: JLR2 on 21 Jul 2021 11:04AM
Alastair Campbell was one of the stronger presence SPADs over recent years, think Iraq war (David Kelly's suspicious death never far from my mind).

Oldtone you just minded me other thing that was not even mentioned last night by either Laura K or Cummings, the marching out of Downing Street by an armed Police officer of the young woman Cummings decided he wanted removed. Laura K didn't think to ask Cummings where he got the authority to give such an order if he was simply an advisor to the country's PM.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: oldtone27 on 21 Jul 2021 11:11AM
JLR2, I suspect Cummings is the sort of person to assume authority whether he has it or not and bluff out the consequences.

He did cut a sad figure when he was pictured carrying his box of stuff out of Downing Street. He gets no sympathy from me though.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: JLR2 on 21 Jul 2021 11:25AM
For me personally there was a moment when I felt Cummings was being honest the moment being as he explained the security threat to him and his family at their London home. My reasoning for thinking this was I felt many a time seeing him on TV that I'd have been content to see him, let's say out the picture as it were, so I could believe there were threats being made. However as I've mentioned in my earlier postings on this thread when he explained his return to London following his eye test it dawned on me he was actually returning to the London home he had fled for safety reasons.

My point in saying what I just have is to highlight the effect what feels like a grain of truth can have on how folk will view a situation. That grain of truth I felt Cummings had given in his explanation initially had me thinking he was being honest and I could accept what he was saying, trouble is having taken that grain I was allowing it to influence my thinking of the rest of what he was saying. This may be a technique used by politicians then again maybe not but I wonder???
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: JLR2 on 21 Jul 2021 11:33AM
"He did cut a sad figure when he was pictured carrying his box of stuff out of Downing Street. He gets no sympathy from me though."

I cannot help but feel that was planned and done entirely for dramatic effect between Johnson and Cummings. And as a thought, given the seriousness and amount of work supposedly being done by Cummings the idea that there was no more than a large box required to empty his belongings and paper work from No10 is a joke.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 21 Jul 2021 01:35PM
Equally possible spontaneous, but I agree entirely about its being for dramatic effect.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: Fiz on 25 Jul 2021 01:45PM
As I suspected he's saying he's fully recovered a week after his positive test and it was very mild and people should no longer "cower" due to Covid. We'll never know how rough he felt with Covid because it was a given that he'd say it was mild. I'm part of an adrenal insufficiency community many of which have multiple immunodeficiency disorders and there is a real fear in there due to current numbers and lack of restrictions protecting them. Many are not leaving their homes. And yet Javid says not to cower!
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 25 Jul 2021 04:38PM
Sorry, you've completely misunderstood the position.  You're disabled and therefore disposable.  So you mustn't cower, because that would reduce the likelihood of your getting covid-19, and it's important that lots of disabled people drop dead so that the social security budget can be reduced, and so that the NHS can be blamed as inadequate and rescued by being privatised. 

And if you obey Javid's urgings not to cower but you fail to drop dead, then take care not to get long covid, because it won't take the government - and those they are so thoughtfully appointing to make important healthcare decisions at the highest level - long to realise that it's just some sort of benny-scrounging hypochondria, as, of course, we all know that ME/CFS and postviral fatigue (e.g. after glandular fever) are.  Although, of course, they might be real if they were cheap and easy to fix or if some wonderful drug company came up with a magic cure that didn't bankrupt more than 90% of those that use it in countries where they don't have an NHS.  So it will be fine if you get long covid so long as the mistress or chum of a cabinet minister can make money from it.

So don't cower, you can save the treasury money that it will then be able to reallocate to people who need it more because they only have a few tens of millions, or you can provide a regular income for shareholders and investors in wonderful international corporations.

(Caution - I have previously been diagnosed with a condition that supposedly causes delusions, particularly in the form of disagreeing with mental health personnel about stereotyping patients.)
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 25 Jul 2021 07:20PM
PS, on a less politically acerbic note, please stay safe, lovely Fiz.  Stuff Javid and his "My covid was mild, so don't cower."  He may not consider that people like you matter, but we do.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: Fiz on 26 Jul 2021 09:34AM
He's such a twit. I can't believe he said that when people are still dying and the shielders while no longer officially shielding are still vulnerable. 40% of Covid admissions to hospital are double vaccinated people! 

He's been added to my government twit list. It's getting longer.
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: ditchdwellers on 26 Jul 2021 11:18AM
I went to visit friends yesterday and one half of the couple had picked up Covid last month, despite working from home, rarely going out, and being double jabbed! 

Needless to say, we sat at their large circular kitchen table, with the patio doors open even though it was raining, and they washed their hands before making a pot of tea and we all served ourselves! 

So yes, Javid is definitely a twit. I would say something stronger but we're in polite company  :f_laugh:
Title: Re: So now it's Javid's turn to fake Covid19 infection
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 26 Jul 2021 12:25PM
I also like the idea of a government twit list, but I shall also use a stronger word for twit in my mind and offline.

In all seriousness, though, I've reached the point of believing that most of those in government and their friends have an attitude that if you can't make a profit from someone, or get their vote in constituencies where you need it, they're disposable.

I think of our current rulers thus...

Think of any classical Greek tragedy.

It's a three-part series in which the gods in heaven have a family row and decide to fight it out with a sort of game using humans and demigods as pawns.  They set the mortals against one another, doing nasty things, leading to horrible trauma and death, be it Oedipus who discovered he'd married his mum or Pentheus who's ripped apart by a mob of drunk women.  Then, having caused death, trauma and destruction, the gods make up for a while until the next time they fall out.

In other words, Greek tragedies are like WW1, where the interrelated royals of Europe had a family bust up and three first-cousins, King George, Kaiser Wilhelm and Tsar Nicholas got in a bit of a family row over who owned which land and played it out using mortals as their pawns.  They set the mortals against one another, doing nasty things, leading to horrible trauma and death.  Then, having caused death, trauma and destruction, the royals made up for a while until the next time they fell out.

Hmm.  Modern version?

An elite network of people with political and/or financial power fall out over which of them should get the most power?  Nope, won't work, they're working together, aren't they?  Still, the other bits work.  They set mortals against one another, doing nasty things, leading to horrible trauma and death.  Then, having caused death, trauma and destruction, the powerful people rub their hands and wonder how they're going to get more power.

There's no end to that.

Hmm, but then the classical Greek tragedies didn't end with just one play, and WW1 was just one of a series of wars before and after, including many we don't mention or don't call war. 

On the other hand, let's go back to basics.  We can spread a bit of unity instead of division.  Well, ok, don't expect me not to want to spread division between gods/royals/modern equivalents, but we mortals can try to find ways to fight back against being set against one another.  And no, I'm not as good as I wish I was at that.