Ouch Too

Forum => Talk => Topic started by: Sunny Clouds on 16 Mar 2021 07:42PM

Title: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 16 Mar 2021 07:42PM
Although I haven't been posting, I have been thinking of you all and hoping you're ok.

I still don't quite understand the not secure stuff or whatever it is with the padlock warning, but I don't use the same password here as anywhere else, so maybe that's ok?

Anyway, lots of love to you all.

I'm struggling with stuff at the moment, both on the personal front, trying to sort out stuff to do with family and probate, and doing my usual doom-and-gloom about politics, but I've some lovely neighbours, which cheers me up. 

As I've said to various people in shops, I've been missing my barn dancing but 'socially distanced shopping' is almost as good as we swirl round one another in the aisles and doorways, a sort of 1.5m do-si-do.

:big_hugs:
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: JLR2 on 16 Mar 2021 07:52PM
:big_hugs:
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on 17 Mar 2021 12:44PM
Sunny Clouds,

It is lovely to see you here and posting. 

I hope you are able to find a way through your current struggles. Family and probate can be so tough to deal with, it is important that you stand up for yourself whenever possible.

He he we did country dancing at school when I was 11 there was something about having a partner holding me and knowing the steps we were going to be doing that meant CP did not stop me 'floating' through the air.  I have not been out and about so not been part of the social distancing do-si-do. It might be similar to the one that people do when there is a wheelchair in the cereal aisle at Tesco's.

The Ouch Too website did not have a SSL Certificate for a while but the recent Go Fund me has meant the certificate is now affordable so we have one. The padlock indicates that the website is secure and means that security software won't be flagging it up as maybe unsafe. The rules and aims for the site have become more relaxed and people are just going with the flow. Maybe like the family people find when their own family is less than hmmm good.

:big_hugs:
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: KizzyKazaer on 17 Mar 2021 06:55PM
Wotcha Sunny, been wondering where you were...


Quote
....'socially distanced shopping' is almost as good as we swirl round one another in the aisles and doorways, a sort of 1.5m do-si-do.
:f_laugh:  yeah, it's just like that!
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 17 Mar 2021 10:02PM
The barn dancing I went to for a year before lockdown is very flexible and so long as you have a certain amount of  movement, you can do it.  There was one man with dementia and we used to sort of steer him round between us.

Early in lockdown, I was going out once a week to the shops and/or pharmacy, then once to near a neighbour's house where he was doing a weekly gig on some open space.  Lots of neighbours, all socially spaced.  Then in the autumn, he moved it to zoom.

I've been going out more over the winter, not least because I still haven't got it together to buy a new washing machine, which broke down about a year ago now, so in the colder months, I started using the local launderette once a fortnight.  I also started eating biscuits, which I'd previously given up, and sometimes went out in the evening to buy more.

I've got so much stuff I haven't done.  So much time spent on my computer, blotting out the depression by playing games (easy ones like sudoku, codewords, jigsaws) vaguely listening to news or music on Youtube.  I eat biscuits and pick my skin (my dermatillomania goes back to childhood and is currently attacking my hands, or rather I'm currently attacking them).

I've been posting on an Archers messageboard I go on, where there's a general discussion area, but it gets too politically stressful for me and three times in the last year I've taken a break from the board. 

I think I should be going out in the fresh air more and I'm not.  I feel for all those that are not going out, either because they can't or because they'd be unwise to.  At least for me, it's a choice, albeit because of not coping mentally.

I wonder whether you all realise how much difference you've collectively made to my life over the years.  I'd  never have coped with the worst of my ataxia before it went into remission without you lot.  Even seemingly little things like telling me about double tap falls (i.e. what was happening to me didn't just happen to me and had a name), and before that, when my vision got appalling, telling me about ambutec canes with rover wheels and pointing me to the RNIB who helped me.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: ditchdwellers on 18 Mar 2021 09:30AM
Hi Sunny,

It's lovely to see you again. I've been away for a long time and just found my way recently to this wonderful community. 
I always remember your solid, thoughtful advice and contributions to discussions. You talk about how much you gained from being part of this community,  however I always remember you giving far more than taking. 

Dancing in all it's forms, is just brilliant!  I met my husband Morris dancing. Our eyes met over a slurp of ale and a jingle of bells, and the rest is history   :heart:
Sadly we both gave up dancing after my final dance ended up with me dislocating my knee cap (again) down a rabbit hole on top of a hill at sundown one summer solstice. Typical  :biggrin:
We do miss it though. Still got all our kit.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: JLR2 on 19 Mar 2021 08:23AM
Good morning everyone, Sunny regarding your washing machine being replaced I can only think to suggest you contact your energy supplier to ask if they are part of the 'White goods scheme'  where energy suppliers provide (at no cost) things like fridges/freezers, cookers and washing machines to qualifying customers. This is a scheme I've mentioned before here on Ouch and recently ended up with a new under-counter freezer and a fridge.

DD, I'm sorry to hear about your knee cap dislocating again, I know just how painful this dislocation can be. Is it something that has been happening to you regularly and do you like me get no warning of it being about to happen?
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 19 Mar 2021 09:37PM
My problem isn't being able to afford a machine thanks to my father dying, it's choosing one, plus a series of silly events. 

(Scroll on by the details if you're not in the mood for a washing machine saga.)

I dithered, then finally chose one but wanted to look in the shop, but lockdown happened.  So I dithered then thought maybe buy secondhand and found a cheap one as a stop-gap then spare, only to realise I needed transport and I didn't know how to buy off gumtree...

I kept dithering then thought how I love my old machine and called a local, very long-established repair company who sent someone out for £60.  It took him maybe 5 min at most to tell me the machine couldn't be repaired.  If I'd known then what I know now, I'd have realised that a replacement motor for that model would no longer be available because the machine is around 15 years old, and that he'd have known that before coming out.  He told me if I bought a machine from his shop, I'd get free delivery and they price-match.

I went to the shop and got very uncomfortable hard-sell for a machine for £450.  I noted the number of the machine I was being pushed to buy, went home and checked online the prices in various shops.  None were selling that model for more than £299.  That includes shops that sell in-store, not just online shops like AO.

I dithered then thought I'd buy the one I'd first chosen.  Nope, sold out, couldn't find it elsewhere.  Settle for a similar model?  Hang on, credit card expired, why no new one?  Reported it lost.  Bank sent out replacement signed for, Royal Mail returned it marked 'no longer at this address'.  What?!

Finally, after several weeks, I got a new credit card but I'd run out of emotional strength.

The problem is that I want a machine that's white (no big black ring round the front) and one I can use without being able to see the digital display, just the knobs and buttons.  I don't mind if it's freestanding or integrated (i.e. with hinges for cupboard doors).  There are some brands I won't touch.

I've decided to ask neighbours to search for me and come up with a list of about 8-12. 

The display thing may seem daft, but my 'night vision' is fading a bit again.  I think it may be to do with my cataracts, which seem to be growing fast, although the clouds of debris from my vitreous detachments don't help.  So I might be able to see a display now, but I don't want a machine that could be useless in two or three years.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: JLR2 on 20 Mar 2021 07:13AM
Morning sunny, I have an idea of what you are going through regarding choosing a washing machine. I was going to recommend the machine I have, a Spanish built Bosch, but thought I'd have a quick look on the web to see what the current prices are for the one I have. Having done my search I ended up reading about some of the experiences of others who have bought the same machine as me and to be honest had I read these experiences before I bought my machine I would probably not have bought it.

That said my machine has been and is working fine with no issues that I have noticed but, and yes I guess there's always a but, I fear this might be down to my not using my machine as much as many who perhaps have a family wash to do every week so it might be that the regular washing I have done have not been straining the machine, particularly the drum bearings which appear to be one of the main problems other owners have mentioned. The weight capacity of my machine is 8kg and with my being one my own it's not likely for me to be needing to use that capacity, certainly not on a weekly basis.

The washing machine I miss most is the old Hoover twin tub I had, just filled it from my hot water tap and off it went. My old twin tub was from the era of metal based bodies for twin tubs rather than what I found was available when I was looking for a new machine. All the twin tubs I managed to find were plastic bodied and intended, it seems, for camping motor home/caravan type settings.

I'm sorry I can't be of much help with your search for a new machine, on the bright side today here in the Highlands it's now raining......yet :f_smiley:
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 20 Mar 2021 09:02PM
That's cheating using rain instead of a washing machine.   :f_whistle:
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: JLR2 on 21 Mar 2021 07:47AM
Awe come oan, it save using the rinse feature :f_laugh:
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Fiz on 22 Mar 2021 06:01AM
Lovely to see you Sunny! 

I could probably count on one hand the amount of happy memories in my childhood but one of them was of going to a barn dance with my Mum. It was in a large barn on a farm and we sat on hay bales around the edge of the barn when resting between dances. I must have been about 10, I absolutely loved it. 

Sorry to hear about the washing machine saga the most unpleasant bit is the local dealer taking you for a ride especially. If ever I buy an appliance I buy from John Lewis and get them to install it. With them their reputation matters and they have on a few occasions repaired appliances free of charge despite them being officially out of warranty. Twice they replaced things with brand new items despite being out of warranty. As a not very hands on female I feel reassured that they have my back. If they could just pop out and clean my oven for me that'd be great!
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 22 Mar 2021 08:00PM
It was a machine in John Lewis that I liked and that they sold out of.  It was expensive, but it was a Bosch.  The one I've got that died was a Bosch. 

I'm dithering horribly about so much.

As for being taken for a ride, I've got a big emotional crisis these days over trusting professionals, tradesmen, utility companies, public services etc.

Over the years, I have been ripped off, cheated, let down, lied to or whatever by...

...solicitors, plumbers, builders, roofers, joiners, gutter & window cleaners, boiler/heating service people, alarm companies, fuel companies, cable/telephone companies, electrical repairmen, landlords, police, some council departments, DWP & contractors, HMRC etc.

I had a right royal saga with banks and building societies using my power of attorney when Dad had dementia, then after he died.  Banks in a pickle, banks doing daft things, banks losing documents etc.  I have just plucked up courage to open another account at a different bank (to deal with more of Dad's estate) and had a telephone appointment for today.  I didn't receive the call.  After an hour or so, I telephoned the call centre who said they'd send an internal email.  Still nothing.  I'm still intermittently crying.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: lankou on 22 Mar 2021 08:05PM
That's cheating using rain instead of a washing machine.  :f_whistle:
Extreme clothes washing (Youtube link.)


How Nordic people do the laundry - YouTube



<iframe width="725" height="408" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/IBkOOYbPrAo" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe> (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBkOOYbPrAo&t=5s)
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 22 Mar 2021 09:41PM
That's cheered me up no end.

Incidentally, for most of last year, I was hand-washing before starting to use a local launderette.  Each week, I grumbled a bit as I squeezed the water out of my laundry.  Not having a washing machine is one thing, but oh for a mangle!  Things dry so quickly when they've been put through the mangle, and with a bit of practice, they come out almost as if you'd ironed them as well.

Being without a machine but being able to afford a launderette reminds me of the days when if you were on the dole or on the sick and you were getting income support, you could get a laundry allowance if you didn't have a bath or big sink to wash sheets etc.  Could you imagine the last few governments, New Labour, Coalition, Tory providing that?  I'm going to the launderette once a fortnight with two batches, one pale and one dark, £4 each batch for washing.  That doesn't include soap or drying.  If you've enough money, it's nothing and I'm ok for it these days.  There were times when I wasn't and I know that all around me there are people that aren't.  With every trip to the launderette I tell myself to remember how lucky I am.  A lot of the time, I'm too depressed to hold onto the thought, so things like that help.

Incidentally, sorry I'm still long-winded as ever, but you all know it's ok to scroll on by.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: JLR2 on 24 Mar 2021 06:58AM
I've been wondering if anyone makes suits like that worn by Cary Grant in the movie North by North West, you know the one that you can wash whilst having a shower?

Reading the pages of the Guardian there and for whatever reason it just dawned on me it wasn't Charade but North by North West that Grant had the shower scene in :f_doh:
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on 24 Mar 2021 09:39AM
I love the way this thread meanders  :thumbsup:

The mentioning of a laundry allowance reminded me that I used to get a shoe allowance I think it was less than £2.00 a week.

A suit that can be washed in the shower hmm now I am thinking of the film The Man in the White Suit starring Alec Guinness. If memory serves correct the suit unravels at the end and the people chasing the main character no longer see the suit material as a threat to capitalism. I have polyester fleeces that seem to be wearing well, but I do worry some about how the washing machine can cause particles of fleece to end up polluting the sea. There is no way I could hand wash them though way too heavy when wet. I remember the old twin tubs, being the youngest and poorest in the family I ended up with a hand me down one. The dials did not work properly so it had to be switched on and off at the wall plug. The spinner also kept spinning when I open the lid so getting the washing done was quite an event. Back then I was more able and getting the washing done and on the whirly gig drier was satisfying. Using a automatic front loader can feel like every day is wash day.

Sunny,

https://www.rnib.org.uk/connect-community/connect-technology/rnib-and-miele-launch-washing-machine-designed-people-sight-loss

:f_smiley:
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 24 Mar 2021 02:41PM
That's an interesting washing machine. More dithering!

As for clothes, I'm not sure if I've mentioned (and I'm too lazy to scroll) how handwashing, then launderette, made me think about how often I wash things.

I suddenly realised after I'd been handwashing for a while how much needs washing far less often than I did, although a couple of things need washing more often.  With experimenting, I've realised I can wear the same long-sleeved T-shirt all day plus overnight for two days in a row.  I'm not sure if that will work in summer, but I'll see.   On the other hand, a shower-towel used 2-3 times a week can last over two months in warm weather if hung over the bannisters where it dries fast.

I suppose it maps onto housework.  I've got sloppy with housework, but again I ask myself, how often does a kitchen or bathroom floor actually need mopping?  How often does a carpet actually need vacuuming?  On the other hand, a neighbour came round the other day to sort out something practical for me and afterwards I looked at how much dust there is on surfaces in my study.  Eek.

I've just taken time out from typing to open all my windows for a spring house-airing.  There's a window I'd stopped using because the allen-key lock is jammed.  I've a spare lock but no confidence to fix it.  Daft.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: KizzyKazaer on 25 Mar 2021 11:53AM
Quote
Being without a machine but being able to afford a launderette reminds me of the days when if you were on the dole or on the sick and you were getting income support, you could get a laundry allowance if you didn't have a bath or big sink to wash sheets etc.
Ah,that was in the good old days - pre-April 1988 - of Supplementary Benefit, which Income Support replaced.  One used to be able to get various 'add-ons' to that, like the laundry allowance you mention.  There were a few others, not that I can remember them now! (the shoe allowance is a new one on me)  Also there were actual grants, not 'Social Fund' loans, and they were even available to people signing on, as opposed to the Community Care Grant which only a relative few could claim.  And the DWP was the DHSS, which personally I thought was a much better name.... Now I'm really going down Memory Lane :f_wah:



As for washing clothes, doing it by hand really sucks when it comes to wringing out the water - certainly a good old-fashioned mangle would be helpful there and I've often wished for a mini-version on the occasions where I  handwash my smalls!
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 25 Mar 2021 01:33PM
Supplementary benefit?  How could I have forgotten?

As for DHSS, I should know that as well, and that's prompting something else - wasn't it DSS before that?  A close relative of mine (now deceased) was an appeal tribunal chair.  They probably insist on being called judges now, but his 'qualification' to do it was as a magistrate and having sat on other tribunals like the rent tribunal.  Gosh, more memories - a time when there were limits to how far landlords were allowed to rip you off.

Meandering, but it's the entwining of that and benefits and disability...(doom and gloom followed by a little non-gloom)...

Where I live, as in various other large urban areas in England (don't know about rest of UK), there's an issue with 'exempt housing'.  If anyone reading this doesn't know (and I only do because of news stories about it) the situation is that if a landlord wants to bung loads of people in a house, turning it into a house of multiple occupancy (HMO) he finds he's subject to loads of regulations; but if he fills it with people who need some support and says he's providing it, he avoids most of the regulations relating to HMOs and his tenants, who are on benefits, get a higher rate of money for their rent and it gets paid direct to their landlord, who doesn't have to be vetted or prove he's actually providing any real support.

In some cities, there are thousands or even tens of thousands of such tenants crammed into properties, sometimes several properties in a single road.  This results in places where neighbours are having to deal with behaviour prompted by various sorts of severe mental illness, drug/alcohol misuse/addiction, aftermath of trauma from domestic abuse or sudden loss of home & job etc. 

Care in the community had its failings, but at the outset DLA wasn't a nightmare to get,  and local authorities and the NHS still had enough funding to provide a fair bit of support. We've seen how that's deteriorated and the informal term Don't care in the community's been around for a good few years now.  But whereas some of us still call being in a psychiatric unit being in the 'bin', metaphorically this exempt housing isn't even dustbins, they're just roadside tipping.

Never mind, make people whose lives fall apart visibly undesirable and they can be blamed or more to the point victim-blamed.  Oh look, problems in our society aren't caused by politicians (so we don't need to argue whether they're malicious or incompetent or not-bothered or whatever) they're caused by these visible 'parasites'.  Well, treat someone like rats, they'll soon be like hungry rats, eating the food others abandon and being smelly for want of somewhere nice & clean to live. 

Gosh, I'm ranty, ranty about that sort of thing still.  Be thankful I'm resisting the temptation to go into wider political issues.

Well anyway whilst there may have been cuts to social security, people do donate free 'kindness'.   The 'kindness banks' in communities can be a bit stretched, but I'm still getting free 'kindness parcels' from my neighbours.  

I seem to have some 'hugs' left over from the 'parcel' my neighbour gave me the other day.  Have some...

:f_hug: :f_hug: :f_hug:

Oh, and this was in with them as well...

:f_peacedove:
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: lankou on 25 Mar 2021 03:03PM
Supplementary benefit?  How could I have forgotten?

As for DHSS, I should know that as well, and that's prompting something else - wasn't it DSS before that? 
The Department of Stealth and Total Obscurity.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 25 Mar 2021 05:18PM
Supplementary benefit?  How could I have forgotten?

As for DHSS, I should know that as well, and that's prompting something else - wasn't it DSS before that?
The Department of Stealth and Total Obscurity.
There's a phrase I'd forgotten.  It's those little phrases that make things more manageable.

I read Private Eye and in the midst of the gloom and corruption exposés that rarely seem to bother the people they're about, there are those plays on words, like referring to Capita as Crapita.  I wish I could think up an alternative name for Maximus to recommend to them.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on 25 Mar 2021 08:17PM
:big_hugs: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Fiz on 26 Mar 2021 10:09AM
Gosh I claimed income support in February 1989 I had no idea then that it was such a new benefit. I remember it was £75 per week which when you compare it to either IR ESA or JSA basic rate was a King's ransome! They also paid the interest on your mortgage from day one of your claim.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 26 Mar 2021 10:25AM
The psychology of the changes is hideous and the more I've thought about this sort of thing over the years, the more aware I've become how affected we are by what I'll call automatic underlying assumptions and beliefs.

This is the one where high flyers see themselves as being motivated by rewards but poor people motivated by penalties.  Ironically, I can see a semi-logic there.  After all, they were motivated by rewards and were successful, but the other people weren't successful, therefore rewards didn't motivate them, so try penalties instead.  Hmm.  Like that dreadful thing they tell children that "You can be anything you want to be."  For a few years now, I've been challenging people who tell children that "What if thirty children nationally each year want to be prime minister, and five hundred want to win an olympic gold?"

Am I allowed to mention my favourite incentive absurdity that I doubt will never be understood by the majority of politicians?  It's to do with prison sentences.  It's common practice in a range of countries to have more than one length of sentence for the same person.  It's described in different ways.  Let's take a simple version and use a non-standard way of describing it.  "Five or ten."

It works this way.  If you go to prison and you behave well and seem to be reformed, you get out after five years, but if you don't do what you're supposed to, you serve ten years.

If you call it something like "ten years with five off for good behaviour" (which is the sort of description we use in this country) then the tabloids and Priti Patels of this world will kick up a fuss saying prisoners should serve their full sentence.  It makes good headlines.

But actually the 'full' sentence is five years.  Ok, so why not say "Five years, but if you don't behave, we'll give you another five"?

Because if saying that if they don't behave they'll get a punishment of five years in prison worked, they wouldn't be there in the first place, would they?  So for the sake of society and the safety of prison guards and other prisoners, you turn it upside down, tell them the sentence is twice as long and offer them a 'reward' for good behaviour.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 26 Mar 2021 10:43AM
Which is the same as benefits.

Offer lots of punishments.

I wonder whether the people in government that introduce and maintain the sort of benefits systems we have now have ever actually been hungry or known anyone that has been.

The irony is that I don't think the previous, kinder levels of social security were intended to be 'generous'.  I think they were intended to be practical.  It's just that certain politicians bought into their own rhetoric.  I doubt, though, that those same politicians would hire a constituency office worker, even one in a job they'd consider menial like a cleaner, if that person turned up looking a bit grubby and scruffy, maybe even a bit smelly. 

Not because the applicant doesn't care, but because they can't afford enough soap powder, shampoo, sanitary towels etc.  They can't afford a haircut but no one's taught them to cut their hair. 

And maybe they need a bit of disability kit they can't afford because either their PIP is too low or they don't get it at all.  Maybe they can't concentrate because they're hungry.

Then there are people like me.  Got in the psychiatric system after a breakdown.  Got back into work.  So many blasted appointments, endlessly changing, leaving me distraught for days that I couldn't cope with my full-time job as well.  I'd call a team meeting then my nurse would call and I'd have to cancel.  Yes, I was a berk not to say no, I can't come, but I wasn't brought up that way.

So I dropped down to part-time but it still wasn't sustainable, so I gave up and just focussed on voluntary work and studying.

However, the benefits system got nastier and I got more scared. Terrified as each bit of voluntary work ended that if I took on more, someone trying to hit targets would say it's a change of circumstances and reassess everything.

I oscillate between feeling ashamed of my cowardice and reminding myself that it's a logical response.  I'm not arguing others shouldn't do voluntary work.  I'm just saying that personally, I don't feel able to take the risk.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: JLR2 on 26 Mar 2021 01:19PM
A few thoughts. Volunteering is a non starter on disability benefits, volunteer and the DWP can end disability benefits in an instant the idea being if you're fit enough to volunteer you're fit enough to work. A few years back I asked my MP during a local constituency party meeting if were I to volunteer to either do leaflet drops or drive would be voters to polling stations would this affect my disability benefit entitlements and she came back to me, having looked into my question, to tell me yes it would, so for me no volunteering.

Regarding prison sentences, the early release resulting from "good behaviour" to my mind is a nonsense as for example someone convicted of burglary being released early because recently they have not broken into anyone's house, the rapist who has not committed rape since being jailed or the paedophile who has not abused any children whilst in prison is plain daft for the simple reason they were in prison.

With a very strenuous link to what I was just saying about one type of prisoner there I was curious following the news reporting of Prince Charlie's visit to Greece the other day and so did a wee search about Prince Philip's family and learnt a couple of things that were something of a surprise to me. One was the fact that a cousin of Prince Philip served with the SS during the Second World War and another died fighting for the Nazi's in Russia. however The biggest surprise to me was when I read of how when at the age of eighteen Prince Philip began writing to a Miss Elizabeth Windsor (HRH Princess Elisabeth) who at the time was a whole thirteen years old. Now this new knowledge had me thinking of a situation a SNP MSP found himself in when it was revealed he had been corresponding with a sixteen year old boy through the internet, the MSP lost his position as a minister in the Scottish government and I think has now left the party which given all the changes in society under the gay rights changes seems odd. Though it was a different period that Prince Philip was writing to a thirteen year old I cannot imagine such writings being tolerated nowadays without an odour of grooming emanating from it.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 26 Mar 2021 06:34PM
Quote
Regarding prison sentences, the early release resulting from "good behaviour" to my mind is a nonsense as for example someone convicted of burglary being released early because recently they have not broken into anyone's house, the rapist who has not committed rape since being jailed or the paedophile who has not abused any children whilst in prison is plain daft for the simple reason they were in prison.


The point is, though, that the 'real' sentence is the shorter one, not the longer one.  The issue is how we describe it.  If you describe it differently, it's still the same sentence.  But the possibility of an extra period of time in prison acts to keep warders and other staff safe, and acts as an incentive to reform.

It's not about changing the sentence length.

Let's say that you're drafting legislation and you think that the fair sentence for committing a particular crime is 5 years.  Let's say that you think a fair sentence for what I'll call 'misbehaving' in prison is 5 years.

You have three main options to legislate for when sentencing such a prisoner.

1.  Sentence him to five years then prosecute him for a further offence if he misbehaves, with a sentence of five years, so that if he's good, he gets out after his original five years, and if he's not, he gets out after ten years (i.e. two five year sentences).

2.  Sentence him to five years basic sentence plus and extra five years (determined at time of original sentencing) if he misbehaves.

3.  Sentence him to ten years with the possibility of five years off for good behaviour. 

The way you do it makes no difference to how long he serves.   His punishment for the original crime is five years and he does another five if he's not good.  

What changes is how you describe it.

That's the problem in this country.  If someone in those circumstance is sentenced to ten years and can get five off for good behaviour, people conceptualise the real sentence as ten years.  It's not, it's five.  Either way there's an extra five years hanging over their head.

People used to understand this, but the media have gone to great lengths to distort it over the years.  It doesn't help safety in prisons or reform of prisoners to describe it as a sentence of five years then re-sentence later.  If that worked, they probably wouldn't have committed the offence in the first place.

Slightly better is where a sentence like that is described as something like a 'five to ten' but that can still be portrayed as people getting out early if they only do five. 

Yet the likes of Priti Patel and big news editors probably didn't get to where they are on the basis of incentives phrased as a lack of penalties.  It was almost certainly bonuses dangled under their noses that did the trick. 

Look at job ads for jobs with a range of pay.  They don't offer them as the higher salary but docking some if you don't do your job properly, they offer them as a lower salary but adding some if you do your job extra well.  Same salaries presented as carrots not sticks.  Having a salary range of £50k - £100k is the same whichever way you describe it, but the effect on motivation and sense of fairness is different.

But politicians and media moguls, don't do it the same turned upside down. When it's prison sentences not payscales, they use sticks not carrots, even though what motivates them is carrots, and it makes no difference to the actual figures.

So they play to their audience and pretend that someone sentenced to ten years with the possibility of five years off for good behaviour is 'really' being sentenced for ten years, not five years with an extra five years dangling over them.  This maps onto their rarely mentioning that many, many offences have a range of penalties that can be imposed.

So then they do that with benefits.  Dangling the threat of sanctions over people.  The difference there is that the basic benefits are so low that the penalties become absurd.

Think of a different aspect.  The old saying "Might as well be hanged for a sheep as for a lamb."  Because we don't live in an era where people in most of the world would be hanged for stealing a lamb, we take it as metaphorical.  But it was real.  When you could be hanged for stealing a lamb and you felt you needed or wanted to steal food, you had nothing to lose by stealing a sheep instead.

And when the likes of Priti Patel work on the basis of how people must serve their notional 'full sentence' (which is twice the existing 'real' sentence), they create an incentive to 'steal a sheep instead of a lamb'.  Vindictiveness wins over a safer society.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Fiz on 17 May 2021 09:31AM
Sunny, you've been very quiet. Hoping you are okay. Thinking of you xx
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on 17 May 2021 01:01PM
Fiz,

I am glad you posted  firstly to wish Sunny well and secondly I had missed her reply to JLR.

Sunny,

I just caught up on the thread and like the way you explained the situation. It reminded me of how back in 2004 when I got the job at the call centre and it was suggested to me that I go to the Jobcentre to change my claim. Not only did I get a Tax Credit, I also got a clothing allowance and also £40 a week for a year as long as I kept the job. If there was an option to give me a lump some after a year rather than weekly payments I would have been stressed and worried seeing it as an impossible dream. When it comes to people in prison being given the opportunity to maintain a shorter sentence does mean people who might otherwise think of themselves as being defined by their criminal behaviour can have a positive sense of what could be possible. It might even make it more likely that they take up options for education and or reskilling............... hmm that can only be a thing when the government spends money on helping people have a new start.

JLR,

I am not sure but I think if a person is given a sentence of  say ten years with the possibility of getting out after five they are monitor for the remaining five and so get a harder sentence for any criminal activity.

I do like what you said about volunteering. Whenever I have looked into it there are either no options for someone with my level of disability or what is available is not going to fulfil my need to help others and also learn more.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 22 May 2021 09:58PM
Sorry I've not been around.

I've been very depressed and struggling with things.  I'm still posting on another (non-disability) site I go on, but I take long breaks from there at intervals over things that upset me. 

I've tried again and again and again to get a routine back in my life and to get more courage to get things done but it seems to get harder not easier.

It now looks as if I may not be able to stay in the family home (all down to how my late father's estate is distributed, and affected by houses going up enormously in value whilst money in the bank is barely moving).

Just a question of plodding on, I suppose.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: KizzyKazaer on 23 May 2021 06:29PM
You don't need to apologise for absence, Sunny.  If you're having to think about another place to live, then posting on message boards isn't the highest priority, is it?  No wonder you're having trouble with downward moods and routines with all that going on.  I suppose you must now be looking for another home?
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on 26 May 2021 11:11AM
Sunny,

It sounds like going on the other message board is not making you life feel better, maybe it is time to accept that past adventures and riding a wave of interesting friendly posting there are no more. A long time ago message boards were places that could give us hits of dopamine mostly because they were so busy. These days things have moved on so much and for me it has meant I went from watching Tiktok compilations on Facebook to being on Tiktok itself. Lockdown meant a large number of women our age and younger ended up over there and watching it throughout the day has me feeling better. It might be worth you giving it a whorl. If you want some help navigating and using Tiktok let me know.

I realise the bigger issues are what is happening in your home life , your home and inheritance. This might be a stretch but do you remember the story of Hannah Hauxwell 

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/lifestyle/homes-and-gardens/yorkshire-farmer-hannah-hauxwells-retirement-cottage-sale-115277
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Fiz on 26 May 2021 06:36PM
Hi Sunny, lovely to see you back. Ouch isn't the same without you  :f_hug:
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 30 May 2021 07:08PM
I typed 'sorry I'm still coming and going' and then thought 'but they said I don't have to say sorry' and deleted it.

I'm still all over the place.  Some days, I make lots of progress, catching up on things I'd put off, and other days I do very little at all.

Today it felt like I did nothing, mostly just sat at my computer watching videos or listening to them if the sound was clear whilst doing puzzles.   However, I just typed in then deleted a list of lots of little things I've done and reminded myself I'm doing more than I thought I was.

The other board I mentioned has left me feeling upset again, except that I feel differently, and in part it's what Sunshine said, and in part it's other stuff that's been going through my head.

There's someone there I'll give you my biased view of.  If you go on that site, you'll have your own views, and if you don't, well you don't have to assume I'm right, this is about my perceptions and the impact on me of them.

She says she represents Gypsies & Travellers (not that she'd use capitals) on the Welsh Senedd.  She also says she isn't Gypsy, Roma or Traveller.  I regard her attitudes towards GRT people as offensive, and she regards them as realistic.  Apparently we're almost all illiterate.  Well, I know a lot of others of Traveller heritage, and they've typically been at least partly literate, and a good few were very well educated.  

Today's thoughts had been "Well, that's Wales, not England." then "And I shall carry on doing my little bit here."  E.g. when people where I live talk of 'dirty Gypsies' in the local park, I ask them to consider something.  We have residential road corners with the front of a house on one road and the side of the house and garden on the other.  We get dumped rubbish alongside the gardens.

I say to people to look what sort of rubbish it is.  Almost always you can see evidence that it comes from a house.  I then ask why we have to live near all these 'dirty house-dwellers'.  I say there's so much less rubbish in the park.  Just domestic rubbish, not the aftermath of a slumlord clearing out a flat or a kitchen being renovated or windows being replaced.  Oh, and people don't spot my heritage because I live in a detached house. 

I need to get stronger and stronger and remind myself that it doesn't matter if I go on a site and from my perspective some people are posting stuff that feels to me to be prejudiced and socially excluding. 

And what I've learnt/absorbed from Ouchers is an important part of that.  Remembering to feel pride not inadequacy.

That being said, I was thinking the other day how I've valued some of the interactions I've had with Ouchers I've had significant disagreements with, because I've learnt a lot.  E.g. Ote and I have disagreed a lot about D/d/HoH issues, yet I've learnt some really important stuff from him about inequalities in service provision and representation that I hadn't been aware of.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 30 May 2021 07:10PM
Incidentally, as regards Tiktok, I'm not quite sure what it would offer.  I've never used it or seen it.  I don't have a smartphone - does it work with a desktop so I could see other people's videos?
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Fiz on 30 May 2021 09:15PM
I know nothing of tiktok, you'd have to ask sunshine
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: ally on 31 May 2021 04:10PM
Sunny I read that post on the other site.  I’ve no idea what sort of job she has.  However, you can’t lump all travellers etc into one category.   What about two travellers I read about a while ago.  Both had got into Oxford to read literature?  They both left university with good degrees.   I hardly imagine Oxford would’ve given them a place had they been illiterate.  I think the one posting on the other site has allowed her job to go to her head.  I can’t imagine travellers being fond of someone like her, who thinks she knows everything about them, and, their culture.  She’s possibly imposing her negative views on them.  

I think the only way you can truly know about travellers, and other cultures, is if you’re one yourself, and, she’s not.   It isn’t the same thing.  However, I’ve had hearing people deciding whats best for me in most aspects of my life.  I resent it, because most times they don’t have a clue.  I know what I need, and, want,  not them, as they’re not deaf, I am.  Some deaf don’t have good English skills, however, I do, so, you can’t lump all deaf into the same category either.  I’m sure the poster knows your views on the subject, as you’ve mentioned it before on that site.  Don’t allow her, and, others get to you. X
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: On the edge on 31 May 2021 07:26PM
I know nothing of tiktok, you'd have to ask sunshine
I thought TikTok and Instagram were for people 18-30 photographing their own dinner and making themselves look silly, really so never got involved with them really.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Fiz on 01 Jun 2021 06:40AM
I use Instagram. I have a personal account which I connect with family and I follow a couple of famous people and I also have a professional account on an old phone for campaigning for changes to mental health services and I connect with organisations and MPs that are involved in mental health. Being a professional account anyone can follow you, no permissions needed, so I have gained a lot of individuals who have experienced either trauma or other mental health issues who are following me too. 

Instagram has much higher security on personal account settings than Facebook does. The public can't see anything you post whereas Facebook is lapsidaisical. I have considered leaving Facebook many times in recent months because the newsfeed is now 50% adverts which drives me nuts. I refuse to buy from any company that clogs up my newsfeed with adverts! Facebook must be making billions daily with the current amount of advertising. Instagram is much better. But I would miss a few connections that I have on Facebook plus I belong to a few Facebook groups that are really helpful or that I have friends in that I have known for decades whom I would miss so I am still there for now.

The only platform I don't use is Twitter. I joined for a few days but was shocked by the vitriol that I was reading. To me Twitter appeared to be somewhere you could state your opinion and others could slate that opinion adding personal attacks into the response. It didn't appear to be about social connections at all so I deleted my account on leaving having never posted a tweet or replied to anybody there.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: On the edge on 01 Jun 2021 10:17AM
I agree about Facebook but don't see the Instagram or TikTok areas conducive to what I do.  Twitter is just abuse mainly so I just post links to my blog on it and don't lay myself open to the abusers.  Basically I cannot do trivia which is mostly what these sites produce.   A lot are 'image' driven so with a face like mine it would be pointless and I have no intention following that direction.  Being old school it looks Iike an 18-30 thing and the last thing they want is oldies like me dribbling everywhere.  It's all daft videos and selfies or something neither of which I do.  What I was told was that I need to lighten up and be more social...  oops I thought I was a crowd pleaser :f_laugh:
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 03 Jun 2021 04:42PM
Quote
What I was told was that I need to lighten up and be more social...

It's not for me, then. The only sort of lightening up I do is dark humour, random flippancy, and plays on words, all of which, all too often, lead me into lengthy analysis.

I don't post on Facebook any more and have never posted on Twitter, Instagram etc.  Facebook's algorithms spotted my name wasn't real a few years back.  Someone I know told me how to fake it, i.e. photoshop a bus pass and something else.  I was too slow, though, and having missed the two week deadline, now it would be harder.

To my surprise, I didn't really miss facebook.

Something I thought of joining is something I get intermittent advertising for and others mention, but I'm not sure I've got the name right - My Street?  Anyway, it's something along those lines, but I wasn't sure how much info about me would end up in algorithms I don't want.

That being said, I think we can say Google knows all about me.  Something that really bugged me was that I volunteered to help out a community group that has a website.  I agreed to have an email address that was my first name at their website email.

But someone on the committee asked someone else to set me up with a googlemail, and they did it in my real name.  My first name isn't very common and my last name is very unusual.  Google already knows roughly where I live from what I've searched for, e.g. supermarket website, click on branch info for the times, find you've landed on a Googlemaps thingy.  Match that with my name and they've got me.  I was furious.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Fiz on 04 Jun 2021 07:19AM
Wowsers pretty sure you can delete that Gmail account. I have deleted a Gmail account sunny. I would definitely do that. I don't have a Gmail account now because I don't want Google knowing everything about me! My pixel (Google) phone automatically created me a Gmail account when I got the phone and when I deleted it I was severely punished as deleting the account attached to the phone resulted in Google emptying my calendar and phone contacts! Thankfully my phone contacts were still on my old phone as were important dates like birthdays and appointments. 

I keep my surname off Facebook. Despite that a creep I met on a dating site managed to find me on Facebook. When he messaged me after our meeting during which I said a definite goodbye, I responded by blocking him. But it shows that common first name or not, even without a surname, people can find you. I have my settings fairly high privacy wise so all the public see are profile and cover photos.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 04 Jun 2021 11:37AM
The trouble is that once Google has your name and can map it onto your computer, it can match that to information it's got elsewhere.

I'm not sure how it works, but what I do know is that if I delete all my cookies then go on a site that checks whether my line's ok, it knows where I am.  I.e. it's the location of my internet connection it knows, not my actual computer.  Maybe that's not an issue with a smartphone connection, I have no idea.

But in practical terms, since Google's computers probably have, from Youtube and from non-Google sites that feed info back to it, a fair bit of info as to my health conditions, political views etc. I don't feel comfortable about that being mapped onto my name.

But then if I don't get in fast with my refusal of consent form, my GP will give my personal info to a database that will be sold commercially by the government (I think they're phrasing it as companies paying to use it) loads of info on me will be in the big companies that then share info, officially or unofficially.

That being said, one of the things I get most heated about in relation to mental health services is just how much patient information they share with other organisations on a general basis.  For example, I know that info about me from the local mental health trust has been shared with the police (who were happy to delete it as it didn't actually interest or concern them), social services, Ofsted, and even some private companies, charities and voluntary groups. 

And that for me is typical of how information gets spread around.  So I suppose it shouldn't bug me about Google's computers mapping information it has on the sites I visit to my name, because if info on me were to be used in the future by an organisation they choose to sell their info to, there'd be loads from elsewhere anyway.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Fiz on 04 Jun 2021 09:00PM
You can opt out of NHS data sharing via this site it's easily done. 

https://digital.nhs.uk/services/national-data-opt-out

I opted out of NHS data sharing in 2013 and I have checked my settings recently due to the NHS plans to continue with their plans to data share but I am still on opted out from years back. 

If it was simple information gathering on diagnosis, conditions, medication etc I would be fine with it but no one's taking that information from my file with the possibility of linking it to my NHS number that's for sure..Too much information. Had the government wanted the information for planning purposes and only gathered anonymous statistics that would have been fine. But they have to throw in Big Brother..
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: On the edge on 05 Jun 2021 09:56AM
The trouble is that once Google has your name and can map it onto your computer, it can match that to information it's got elsewhere.

I'm not sure how it works, but what I do know is that if I delete all my cookies then go on a site that checks whether my line's ok, it knows where I am.  I.e. it's the location of my internet connection it knows, not my actual computer.  Maybe that's not an issue with a smartphone connection, I have no idea.

But in practical terms, since Google's computers probably have, from Youtube and from non-Google sites that feed info back to it, a fair bit of info as to my health conditions, political views etc. I don't feel comfortable about that being mapped onto my name.

But then if I don't get in fast with my refusal of consent form, my GP will give my personal info to a database that will be sold commercially by the government (I think they're phrasing it as companies paying to use it) loads of info on me will be in the big companies that then share info, officially or unofficially.

That being said, one of the things I get most heated about in relation to mental health services is just how much patient information they share with other organisations on a general basis.  For example, I know that info about me from the local mental health trust has been shared with the police (who were happy to delete it as it didn't actually interest or concern them), social services, Ofsted, and even some private companies, charities and voluntary groups. 

And that for me is typical of how information gets spread around.  So I suppose it shouldn't bug me about Google's computers mapping information it has on the sites I visit to my name, because if info on me were to be used in the future by an organisation they choose to sell their info to, there'd be loads from elsew
I campaign a lot, but one annoyed reader of my blogs tracked me down, put my name address online for everyone to see, then spammed every post I put out.  One site I created for local deaf the individual posted homosexual porn links on 68 of them.....  then tried to do the same to my readers, I had to close it down.  I gather the person concerned had quite serious mental health issues but was very adept at hacking people.  FB tracked the person down to Australia of all places, and took them offline, but they resumed under an alias, but at least left me alone.   the person also brought down the RNID forum by adopting multiple alias and different sex's too.  SO good were they at it the charity couldn't continue to offer feedback that way and doesn't today.  There were also attempts at the SEE HEAR BBC spots as well.  This individual hated deaf people.  For the hacker it just means adopting another name etc and they carry on.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on 05 Jun 2021 01:18PM
Quote
Incidentally, as regards Tiktok, I'm not quite sure what it would offer.  I've never used it or seen it.  I don't have a smartphone - does it work with a desktop so I could see other people's videos?



Yes it works on a computer but not as well because there is less functionality. If you want to watch and type comments it is actually easier for oldies like me though. You do need to have a mobile number to make an account and using your own account is key to getting the access you are aiming for. It is like if Chrome tracked your Favourites and suggested other pages for you to look at. www.TickTock.com sorry that should be https://www.tiktok.com/en
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on 05 Jun 2021 01:37PM
No that I am up to date with the thread I am sending  :big_hugs:

For a long time I had a name that was so common that I was not worried about being identified or found. My married name can be more easily connected to Mr Sunshine's Twitter account so it blew my cover. On any social media site the key thing is to set things up to how you want them to be. For example on Tiktok I have set it do not accept private messages, I use a nickname not used before etc.

I have Instagram too but only to use as a fangirl of bands, actors and photographers etc. 

I might have posted on it before but I think it unlikely that Google Facebook etc want to know about me as Sarah its more like I am a bunch or 011100011 to them. Facebook ads do get annoying, I find the trick is to check it a handful of times a day and do one big scroll through new stuff because the adverts kind of disappear through a brain filter if you get what I mean.

My Tiktok adventure is at the getting to know you phase like when I found MSN Communities back in 1999 and by 2003 I was in America so who knows.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: ally on 05 Jun 2021 04:49PM
I’ve posted about this before.  My name is not a common one.  Someone is cat fishing my name on sex dating sites, and, fans only.   Some explicit  emails I’ve been sent are from women, so, the person above is a male.  I can’t resolve the problem, apart from changing my email.  It’s very annoying, and, I hope anyone seeing my name on the internet doesn’t think it’s me.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 05 Jun 2021 11:12PM
I find it difficult not to get obsessed over privacy and truth or otherwise of information about me that others hold.  I suppose there has to be a limit to how anxious one gets.

The Guardian has a good link to a fairly easy explanation of how to opt out and a better form than the official one, which my computer doesn't like.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Fiz on 06 Jun 2021 08:39AM
You can request Google not to bring up your details if people search for it. If Google withold results because people have requested that they do so, a note comes up on the search page saying "some results may have been withheld due to data protection laws".

I have no clue as to the process though but I know that relatives of famous murderers for example have gone through the process of search engines not being allowed to bring up any information on them. 

If anyone is at risk of harm or harrassment I would say to have a look into the data protection process on the internet.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 06 Jun 2021 02:40PM
Belatedly following up on the Tiktok suggestion.

I've looked at the Wikipedia entry on it and looked at a couple of other sources of info.  I don't like their censorship of videos by disabled people and LGBT+ people.

I've been looking mostly, though at stuff relating to 2019 and 2020, so maybe I could find an update on how Tiktok is handling this sort of thing now.

Though again, I think the whole issue of what is or isn't allowed on the various platforms is a mess to say the least.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Fiz on 08 Jun 2021 08:32AM
I am a bear of little brain and don't understand tiktok. I have seen shared videos where people lip sync to prerecorded videos on tiktok, does it do more than that? 

I am so hopeless with technology plus hate myself so much and would never choose to post a photo or video of me anywhere I doubt that I would ever be able to use it.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 08 Jun 2021 10:11AM
I was briefly in a television programme years ago, and in the broadcast version (is 'cut' the word I want?) the presenter lied/misrepresented something I'd said while we were chatting before the programme.  He may not have meant to.  There's a phrase I've come across "He/she only hears what he/she wants to"  They also filmed me offline and used something I said completely out of context.  I think that was deliberate.

Once upon a time, stuff like that got lost unless someone had an old videotape, but now it lingers for years online.

It's made me wary.  Yet I post enough about myself online that I think some people would be able to recognise me.  But then we can be matched between different online boards.  I posted something on a different board which someone here spotted contained a distinctive feature of the posting style I was using at that time, even though I was using a different name and had changed some key details about myself.

How people can ever choose careers in entertainment or politics is beyond me.  I'd never be brave enough.

And now there's the added problem of technology that can alter videos, like the stuff recently used to make it seem like Trump was wearing his trousers back-to-front.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: JLR2 on 08 Jun 2021 10:14PM
Sometime back when I was a paid subscriber to a newspaper's online site I, out of curiosity, Googled a fellow commentator's name and as they had mentioned in one of their online comments the name of the town they said they lived in, and to say I was surprised by what I was able to discover would be to put it mildly.

As the person involved had not used a made up name putting their name and town into Google led me to finding out some of their activities, council planning objections and the like, but more concerning to me was the fact that I was able, through what I had discovered, to use Google earth's street view to see the house where the commentator lived. I did think about trying to warn this commentator but I just could not think of a way to do this without others realising they too could do the same as I had done. The commentator was someone with whom I had many agreeable chats through the newspaper's comments section but had I been someone who felt offended by the commentator perhaps knowing where they lived they could pose a risk of harm to them.

Sometimes it can be all too easy to inadvertently put too much information on screen, even in seemingly agreeable chats.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 09 Jun 2021 11:07AM
The one time I got really annoyed was some years ago on a much larger site than this when a poster I wasn't friends with, but had happened to meet once at an event, made reference to the neighbourhood I live in, and I had to think fast to reframe what was said as a reference to a place I know, not where I live.  I can't get my head round what makes someone think it's ok on a board read by vast numbers of people, to say where someone lives to within a short walking distance.

As it is, on another board, I'm having a problem withe someone I regard as a friend and with whom I chat offline who has now more than once made reference to things we've said offline but not online.  I can't get my head round why people do that, especially as in their case, I previously specifically asked them not to.  As I'm typing this, I'm sadly accepting that that's a friendship that's effectively ended. 

I know that over the years, I've given out enough personal information for someone that knows what they're doing to track me down, but I'd rather it wasn't too easy for the casual curious person.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: On the edge on 10 Jun 2021 12:10PM
The one time I got really annoyed was some years ago on a much larger site than this when a poster I wasn't friends with, but had happened to meet once at an event, made reference to the neighbourhood I live in, and I had to think fast to reframe what was said as a reference to a place I know, not where I live.  I can't get my head round what makes someone think it's ok on a board read by vast numbers of people, to say where someone lives to within a short walking distance.

As it is, on another board, I'm having a problem withe someone I regard as a friend and with whom I chat offline who has now more than once made reference to things we've said offline but not online.  I can't get my head round why people do that, especially as in their case, I previously specifically asked them not to.  As I'm typing this, I'm sadly accepting that that's a friendship that's effectively ended. 

I know that over the years, I've given out enough personal information for someone that knows what they're doing to track me down, but I'd rather it wasn't too easy for the casual curious person.
This is the current issue with those cricket players, having said something a bit silly as a teen the righteous indignation area trawl years back to make them racists or homophobic etc and they can lose jobs and everything.  I'm pretty sure if I was some sort of celeb they would find a number of things said they could have fun with, but I never regret and never apologise, I am aware once you say something online it's there to be misinterpreted anyway.  I just aired on my blog an old B/W film of deaf children in 1954, and it was by current 'norms' now totally racist, but you have to allow for different times and attitudes, next week what we believe now will be against some grain or other too.  It's WOKE rule by the witch hunters.  We have gone too far in interpreting inclusion, diversity, acceptances,  and access, like BLM it was hijacked by the extremes and now works against us all.  Every label and tag is another nail in our equality coffin.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 10 Jun 2021 12:33PM
This is the current issue with those cricket players, having said something a bit silly as a teen the righteous indignation area trawl years back to make them racists or homophobic etc and they can lose jobs and everything.  I'm pretty sure if I was some sort of celeb they would find a number of things said they could have fun with, but I never regret and never apologise, I am aware once you say something online it's there to be misinterpreted anyway.  I just aired on my blog an old B/W film of deaf children in 1954, and it was by current 'norms' now totally racist, but you have to allow for different times and attitudes, next week what we believe now will be against some grain or other too.  It's WOKE rule by the witch hunters.  We have gone too far in interpreting inclusion, diversity, acceptances,  and access, like BLM it was hijacked by the extremes and now works against us all.  Every label and tag is another nail in our equality coffin.
I agree that you have to interpret things in terms of the time in which they happened, whilst looking at how we might do things differently now.

It can be such a delicate balance, not least because if you get into the field of politics, you get such an odd mix of people doing things that some thought were ok and some thought weren't but pretended were ok etc.  E.g. the history of Black slavery in what I'll call the Western-led empires.  I believe that some White people in the past genuinely believed that  Black people didn't have the same feelings and thoughts as White people, for example, thinking that Black people didn't feel pain or exhaustion as much as White people do; whereas other White people knew and didn't care; and yet more White people didn't know but didn't care to find out.  Important to tease it out not so much for condemning or praising the past, but for moving forward.

As for 'woke', I don't like the way that term has been weaponised.  I'm not ashamed to say I'm woke.  As for BLM, I'll stand alongside people of colour who are now woke to their rights.  Incidentally, there's no need to capitalise it just because it's a dialect word.  If a British English term. i.e. woken or awake were used instead of the African American woke, would you capitalise it?  Or maybe for a better analogy, if a Gaelic or Welsh term were used by Celtic British people to say they're awake to their rights, would you capitalise it?

As someone with ethnic minority heritage, before BLM became prominent I marched on anti-racism demos and campaigned in other ways, and as far as I'm concerned, I stand united with people of colour who are having the courage to say they're now woke(n) to their rights.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Fiz on 10 Jun 2021 02:43PM
I agree that the term Woke is used negatively and I don't like that. And being woke is a good thing.

Having discovered what Ollie wrote in his tweets, I don't feel his comment about women who are gamers being better in bed than non gamers to be sexist. It might have been his experience! But I'm not young and I clearly remember when young that the 'n' word was out of bounds and not suitable language and his tweet was relatively recent so that term was racist and inappropriate and he should/would have known that when he tweeted. Obviously then he had no idea he would be famous or that people would trawl through his social media looking for headline news.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 10 Jun 2021 03:36PM
I didn't know anything about the Ollie thing until mentioned here, but I just looked it up.  It seems wrong to me to judge someone on the basis of behaviour that far back without considering more recent behaviour.  To me, it's important for the survival of the human species at every level that we maintain a sense that people can change and adapt.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Fiz on 11 Jun 2021 03:01AM
I agree sunny. I think it right that Ollie apologise for his previous racist language and to state that it was wrong and then move on. He's still suspended from cricket and I think that is harsh.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 11 Jun 2021 11:02AM
It sounds like it to me, based on my limited knowledge of the situation, and that sort of thing can rebound.  Taking stuff too far is, if I've correctly understood, part of what very understandably gets the back up of people like OtE to the extent that a word like woke ends up being used as a negative word.

For me, an absurdity I think of in this sort of discussion is something on another messageboard.  A while back, on one of various Archers boards I've posted on since the BBC one closed, someone who'd only posted on that board a couple of times suddenly popped up and said accusingly that what I'd just said wasn't what I'd said before (i.e. on another Archers board, probably the BBC one).  I was bewildered and said words to the effect that I'd thought the whole point of discussing and debating was to learn and modify our views on things.

It was a salutary reminder for me that some people - and I've no idea what proportion of people - have precious little sense they might change their views.  That then poses the question - do they debate because they think they can change other people's views or do they just want to pick a fight?
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Fiz on 11 Jun 2021 12:32PM
Yes I think there are people who 'debate' because they enjoy the verbal conquest rather than they hold a particular view. There's someone that I knew from a now closed forum like that whom I have not got involved with on social media because I felt the heated debate was what they were after and I dislike conflict.

I was reading about a previous cast member from the soap Neighbours who is suing the company that make the programme for racism. She is of aboriginal descent and when I read her allegations I felt they were harsh but I have learnt from them myself. One complaint was that a cast member in off screen conversations with other cast members used the term "slave driver" which she said was racist. I may have used that term myself in the past and had never thought of it as racist but I can understand that it is and I definitely wouldn't use that phrase myself in the future. I wasn't present when the cast member used the phrase but I would assume it had been used in ignorance with no racist intent. 

My son travelled to China and as part of his trip to the Embassy for his Visa he had to declare his social media account details so he deleted his Twitter account because he's quite political!  :f_laugh:
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 11 Jun 2021 01:25PM
China scares me for its surveillance, but then in this country we have surveillance of people, just not quite so obviously.

I still get a wry smile over those people that object to wearing masks because they think it limits their freedom, whilst I think "Good, it reduces the effectiveness of facial recognition technology."  Oh well,  when we stop wearing anti-virus face masks, we can go back to wearing 'Anonymous' masks.

We do have an extremely high concentration of CCTV cameras in the UK, higher, I believe, than most countries.  Various police forces have been experimenting with facial recognition, which worries me, not least because even computers can get it wrong.

An aspect of that that left me shaking my head wearily, was when I saw a documentary online not many years ago exploring facial recognition systems.  For instance, it touched on things like the way the systems tend to recognise European/Western people better than African & Afro-Caribbean people. 

Then it reported on something dotty - a computer programme devised by some Israeli lads, which they were selling to foreign security forces, which allegedly could pick out likely terrorists from their faces.  I looked at it.  Hmm, typically Arabic-appearance faces.  I found myself screaming at my computer "Ask your grandparents what racial stereotyping leads to!"  (For the avoidance of doubt, I'd have felt the same if someone had designed a programme stereotyping Jews and/or Israelis.)

It's as if we've come full circle to small villages where everyone knew, or thought they knew, everyone else's secrets.  Just as in small villages, that could go wrong, in modern society, it can.

And more and more and more, I cling onto the sense that our only fightback is ordinary people reaching out to neighbours, sharing kindness and tolerance at grass roots level.

But who knows, maybe there'll be strong leadership in what I'll call a new Niceness Party.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on 12 Jun 2021 11:58AM
I hope you are having a good weekend.

This will give you a better idea of what I see on TikTok Link (https://www.tiktok.com/@dairewithafada/video/6967378867963137286?is_from_webapp=v1&is_copy_url=0&sender_device=pc&sender_web_id=6949587948896912902) I guess it is linke a cross between You Tube and Twitter. I did not have any vidoes of my own for a long time and people do get that there are people who watch and comment without making their own content. 

It is just an option I have been using there is  not going to be an Ouch Too account over there. :f_smiley:
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 12 Jun 2021 12:30PM
I think my browser must be too out of date, because that link keeps crashing it.  I tried a different browser but the link didn't work (I was probably copying it wrong). As it happens, I'm looking to buy a new laptop, and that would be up-to-date.

So I'll sort my computer stuff then I'll try and tiktok-ify myself. 

Oh dear, and yes, I have just looked online at a couple of websites that explain how to do it.

So it's not number one priority, but it's on my list now.  It had better be worth it. :f_winkeye:
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on 13 Jun 2021 03:42PM
:xfingers: :biggrin:
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 13 Jun 2021 04:31PM
My notion with the laptop is this, sequentially...

Desktop computer, running on Windows 7 (no longer maintained by MS, thus vulnerable), and old Firefox (not upgraded because the current version has certain assistive add-ons I rely upon but which don't seem, from the comments below add-ons you can choose from to be as good).  I have Explorer as well, but that also seems to be out-of-date, so it works for Zoom, but I couldn't get the Tiktok link to work on it,.

Also, I spend a lot of time on my desktop doing things for pleasure but I have personal stuff (to do with sorting out my father's estate) that I do on there, and I've found myself switching on my computer and 'running away' onto the internet to blot out my distress.

So sequence...

Buy laptop
Get familiar with the way it works
Back up things onto it
Use it for the 'paperwork'
When I feel brave enough, update my desktop
Sort out the mess
Try to get on with using desktop for pleasure and laptop for 'work'
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: On the edge on 21 Jun 2021 11:05AM
This is the current issue with those cricket players, having said something a bit silly as a teen the righteous indignation area trawl years back to make them racists or homophobic etc and they can lose jobs and everything.  I'm pretty sure if I was some sort of celeb they would find a number of things said they could have fun with, but I never regret and never apologise, I am aware once you say something online it's there to be misinterpreted anyway.  I just aired on my blog an old B/W film of deaf children in 1954, and it was by current 'norms' now totally racist, but you have to allow for different times and attitudes, next week what we believe now will be against some grain or other too.  It's WOKE rule by the witch hunters.  We have gone too far in interpreting inclusion, diversity, acceptances,  and access, like BLM it was hijacked by the extremes and now works against us all.  Every label and tag is another nail in our equality coffin.
I agree that you have to interpret things in terms of the time in which they happened, whilst looking at how we might do things differently now.

It can be such a delicate balance, not least because if you get into the field of politics, you get such an odd mix of people doing things that some thought were ok and some thought weren't but pretended were ok etc.  E.g. the history of Black slavery in what I'll call the Western-led empires.  I believe that some White people in the past genuinely believed that  Black people didn't have the same feelings and thoughts as White people, for example, thinking that Black people didn't feel pain or exhaustion as much as White people do; whereas other White people knew and didn't care; and yet more White people didn't know but didn't care to find out.  Important to tease it out not so much for condemning or praising the past, but for moving forward.

As for 'woke', I don't like the way that term has been weaponised.  I'm not ashamed to say I'm woke.  As for BLM, I'll stand alongside people of colour who are now woke to their rights.  Incidentally, there's no need to capitalise it just because it's a dialect word.  If a British English term. i.e. woken or awake were used instead of the African American woke, would you capitalise it?  Or maybe for a better analogy, if a Gaelic or Welsh term were used by Celtic British people to say they're awake to their rights, would you capitalise it?

As someone with ethnic minority heritage, before BLM became prominent I marched on anti-racism demos and campaigned in other ways, and as far as I'm concerned, I stand united with people of colour who are having the courage to say they're now woke(n) to their rights.
I'm anti-WOKE with a vengeance really, it is endless lecturing  to people already aware and not racists or any other ist of ic.  All it has done (In my opinion), is generate more and more apathy which in the end will defeat anti-racism and all its demands and lectures.  The knee thing is a red flag to racists and during recent sporting areas clearly a lot of countries view us with annoyance doing it all the time.   Italy wanted to know what the English footy team was playing at when they took the knee yesterday, Hungary/Croatia and many other EU countries won't do it.  

Using a scatter gun and hoping it only hits just one area of view amidst a dozen others is never going to work, you will hit the wrong people, and they get turned off and annoyed.  It makes WOKE supporters look like the Spanish Inquisition, where everyone is wrong unless others comply with them or their view, opposition would go via why is your view any more valid than mine? etc.  Like BLM it was a good idea trashed by their own extremists in hours.  BAME has been downgraded as a term too after that was weaponized, and the BBC went ga ga implementing it.   You cannot create awareness (Or equality and fair play),  with a focus group/lecture or even a law, it has to be a mutually accepted thing, clearly, this is not the response WOKE supporters are getting but ridicule and anger instead.

This was never the response either to the disability laws which still exist on paper only.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 21 Jun 2021 12:47PM
This is the current issue with those cricket players, having said something a bit silly as a teen the righteous indignation area trawl years back to make them racists or homophobic etc and they can lose jobs and everything.  I'm pretty sure if I was some sort of celeb they would find a number of things said they could have fun with, but I never regret and never apologise, I am aware once you say something online it's there to be misinterpreted anyway.  I just aired on my blog an old B/W film of deaf children in 1954, and it was by current 'norms' now totally racist, but you have to allow for different times and attitudes, next week what we believe now will be against some grain or other too.  It's WOKE rule by the witch hunters.  We have gone too far in interpreting inclusion, diversity, acceptances,  and access, like BLM it was hijacked by the extremes and now works against us all.  Every label and tag is another nail in our equality coffin.
I agree that you have to interpret things in terms of the time in which they happened, whilst looking at how we might do things differently now.

It can be such a delicate balance, not least because if you get into the field of politics, you get such an odd mix of people doing things that some thought were ok and some thought weren't but pretended were ok etc.  E.g. the history of Black slavery in what I'll call the Western-led empires.  I believe that some White people in the past genuinely believed that  Black people didn't have the same feelings and thoughts as White people, for example, thinking that Black people didn't feel pain or exhaustion as much as White people do; whereas other White people knew and didn't care; and yet more White people didn't know but didn't care to find out.  Important to tease it out not so much for condemning or praising the past, but for moving forward.

As for 'woke', I don't like the way that term has been weaponised.  I'm not ashamed to say I'm woke.  As for BLM, I'll stand alongside people of colour who are now woke to their rights.  Incidentally, there's no need to capitalise it just because it's a dialect word.  If a British English term. i.e. woken or awake were used instead of the African American woke, would you capitalise it?  Or maybe for a better analogy, if a Gaelic or Welsh term were used by Celtic British people to say they're awake to their rights, would you capitalise it?

As someone with ethnic minority heritage, before BLM became prominent I marched on anti-racism demos and campaigned in other ways, and as far as I'm concerned, I stand united with people of colour who are having the courage to say they're now woke(n) to their rights.
I'm anti-WOKE with a vengeance really, it is endless lecturing  to people already aware and not racists or any other ist of ic.  All it has done (In my opinion), is generate more and more apathy which in the end will defeat anti-racism and all its demands and lectures.  The knee thing is a red flag to racists and during recent sporting areas clearly a lot of countries view us with annoyance doing it all the time.  Italy wanted to know what the English footy team was playing at when they took the knee yesterday, Hungary/Croatia and many other EU countries won't do it. 

Using a scatter gun and hoping it only hits just one area of view amidst a dozen others is never going to work, you will hit the wrong people, and they get turned off and annoyed.  It makes WOKE supporters look like the Spanish Inquisition, where everyone is wrong unless others comply with them or their view, opposition would go via why is your view any more valid than mine? etc.  Like BLM it was a good idea trashed by their own extremists in hours.  BAME has been downgraded as a term too after that was weaponized, and the BBC went ga ga implementing it.  You cannot create awareness (Or equality and fair play),  with a focus group/lecture or even a law, it has to be a mutually accepted thing, clearly, this is not the response WOKE supporters are getting but ridicule and anger instead.

This was never the response either to the disability laws which still exist on paper only.
I find your repeated capitalisation of woke offensive.  There's no need to shout.  Do you do that with words from other dialects & patois or just African American dialect words? 

As for the abbreviation BAME being weaponised, yes, pretty much every abbreviation or term that people use as a descriptor for a group that is disadvantaged gets denigrated and thrown back in their faces.  It's the oldest trick in the linguistic book to turn a word used to describe a group/category of people into an insult thrown back at them.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 21 Jun 2021 01:51PM
I'm assuming that since after my original query as to why you were shouting the word woke you continued to do so, it's not just a problem with your autocorrect or something, you are choosing to scream out that one word, but I don't recall your shouting other words you don't like, just that one word. 

Because it's dialect?  I ask myself whether you would shout bostin back at me if I said I felt that way about something you agree with.  Because of the politics?  I wonder whether if I said I'm patriotic, you'd shout patriotic back at me in capital letters.

So what makes woke different?  What makes an African American dialect word worth shouting when you don't shout any other words?  Maybe because you've worked out that it causes distress when you do so?  That's' the most logical explanation.

And taking into account what else you've said, including your apparent dislike of the abbreviation BAME, seemingly for its concept not for the specific words chosen that it's an abbreviation for, and considering that one of the three reasons why I've stopped posting on the other messageboard I've been posting on for many, many years is the ongoing tirade of disparaging stereotypes of people of my heritage, I've finally had to accept today that in many ways this country is going backwards not forwards when it comes to equality.

I knew it, but didn't want to accept it.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on 21 Jun 2021 04:57PM
Woke means being conscious of racial discrimination in society and other forms of oppression and injustice. In mainstream use, woke can also more generally describe someone or something as being “with it.”

The word woke does not need to be capitalised and in my opinion is showing bad energy on OTE's part.

I have been struggling over the use of the word 'coloniser' to describe white people and the more I go around the house and over hill and dale in my thought process I keep coming back to the fact that people with bad intentions are going to hijack the word coloniser and make it into something it was not intended to be. Worse still then other people start to use the term coloniser in a way that the right are going to define as a racial slur.

As OtE has shown it becomes about shouting and not discussion. 

The idea that black people were thought of as animals to be worked is horrifying to me but then I buy things from companies that treat there workers poorly so I am a hypocrite. The fact is though that if I were able bodied I would be one of those low paid ill used workers.

Sunny,

I hope you get your ne laptop soon, and it is worth getting a external hard drive just to automatically back up the back up if it is important paperwork.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on 21 Jun 2021 05:03PM
ps I just had a extra thought, does that fact words like woke and coloniser were used in good faith only to be hijack take away from the initial value and intent of the words?
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 21 Jun 2021 07:24PM
I was going to post something like "Sorry I lost it earlier" then I stopped myself, thinking, how have I ended up feeling I need to apologise for feeling upset over something like this?

I know sometimes it can seem people go over the top, but if you had a child that had been bullied a lot and you were trying to help it, would it matter more whether the child used what some see as the 'wrong words' as it said it wanted to be treated fairly, or would it matter more whether you could rearrange things a bit to help it?

The sense that people feel angry over others who get a rawer deal asking for equality, and over others supporting them in that makes me think of the Spinners' song Kick the Cat.

The gist of it is that in our society, you have to know who's above you and who's below, and that if you've no one else below you, kick the cat.

I'm not uncomfortable saying I have white privilege. The way I usually put  it is "When I walk down the street, you don't 'see' me."  On the other hand, a very close relative of mine has been on the wrong end of some very, very nasty racist prejudice by officialdom, which I haven't.

Disadvantage is very multi-layered.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 22 Jun 2021 10:02PM
ps I just had a extra thought, does that fact words like woke and coloniser were used in good faith only to be hijack take away from the initial value and intent of the words?
I will now express a view of political linguistics that is from the perspective of a multilingual left-winger.

In my opinion, as a generality, right-wing linguistic trend-setters are far, far better than left-wing linguistic trend-setters at taking a word used by people and movements whose views they oppose and distorting the meaning and then turning them into insults.

In my opinion, as a generality, they are also better at taking general words and adding political meaning to them that align with their views.

Note that I am not saying that it is a one-way thing, just that linguistic influencers on the right seem to be generally better at it than those on the left.

One way in which those on the left sometimes do well at it is turning denigrating insult terms for racial or social groups into badges of pride.  

Taking away your opponent's vocabulary is a very savvy tactic and it also goes beyond right-wing versus left-wing.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: On the edge on 14 Jul 2021 10:46AM
ps I just had a extra thought, does that fact words like woke and coloniser were used in good faith only to be hijack take away from the initial value and intent of the words?
I think using these silly terms just add more grist to a never-ending mill.  I though disabled particularly, were totally against 'labels' of any kind? that we aren't jars? we are individuals?  You cannot be different AND the same.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 14 Jul 2021 11:42AM
ps I just had a extra thought, does that fact words like woke and coloniser were used in good faith only to be hijack take away from the initial value and intent of the words?
I think using these silly terms just add more grist to a never-ending mill.  I though disabled particularly, were totally against 'labels' of any kind? that we aren't jars? we are individuals?  You cannot be different AND the same.
My memory must be failing me.  I thought it was you that chose to introduce the term woke to the discussion, and did so very emphatically.  Why do that if you find it silly?  Or was it so that you could make a point of mocking it?
 
Other dialect words spread and get used.  English is an amazing language with one of the largest vocabularies of any language.  We have a gift for adopting words if we have a use for them.  The everyday example I give is 'sup' and 'soup'.  They're etymologically connected, so why is the vowel so different?  We adopted them at different times in history, and when we did so, we anglicised them differently.

We have mobile phones.  We can call them phones, but we can also call them mobiles. When I was a child, a mobile was a decoration, often made for Christmas, that you hung off something.  But we wanted a word to describe a particular sort of phone, so we used that word.

At a particular point in time, African Americans woke to their rights.  The concept was both narrow - a fightback against the racism and oppression they experienced, and wider, meshing in with overlapping awakenings to people's rights.  So the word woke filled a sociolinguistic gap and was used.

But then people who objected to this awakening started using woke as an insult.  It's been done with lots of words people use to declare their rights.  Which isn't to say that this process of distorting the meaning of a word to take away people's necessary vocabulary is only used to attack the left, it's  just that, as I've said, those on the right tend to use this more as a political tactic.

As for being different and the same, personally I want equality, not sameness.  But 'same' gets used in different ways in different contexts, because you could want, for instance, the same right to access a particular building or service whilst not wanting it in the same way.

As for labels, it depends what's meant by labels.  I think that usually when people say they're against labels, they are against terms that denigrate them or socially exclude them vel sim.  Not wanting labels doesn't mean not wanting words for things.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on 14 Jul 2021 12:01PM
I like the point of why use a word if you object to its use?

It could turnout to be that a word has to be used by enough people before it becomes part of our everyday language- a kind of majority rule.

Then again definition is another thing, so as us oldies die out so will our objections or support and the world will be for the people we hope are woke enough to help and care for us and give us good deaths
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 14 Jul 2021 01:03PM
I had a fun chat elsewhere with people who objected to the use of the terms 'passed' and 'passed away' for 'died'.  I suddenly realised that some thought they were new terms.  I suggested that after those terms had been in use for about 700 years, it was a bit late to suggest that we shouldn't start using them.

Which doesn't mean, of course, that we couldn't decide to stop using a word.

I have long thought, for instance, that 'handicapped' might come back into use as an acceptable word, shorn of its insult-vibe.  I also find it funny as someone with ataxia that we can talk about someone being ataxic both in the sense of having the symptom and in the sense of having a condition characterised by it, but oops, spastic was abandoned because of the use of it as an insult.

I rather like reclaiming terms that are used as insults.  An 'out and proud' approach.  But it doesn't always work, so maybe it's as well it's not me framing the vocabulary on this. 

I love debating stuff like this with OtE because as is so often the case, we come from opposite sides of the argument and both feel ferociously strongly, but I'm fine with that because OtE always comes across to me, as do others here, as having passionate views born of a desire for people to be treated properly.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Fiz on 16 Jul 2021 06:00AM
I'm not keen on the term passed, rather than died. I only heard it fairly recently for the first time and it bemused me and I found it weird. Passed where? Reminds me of Monopoly, do not pass Go. Died, is in my eyes a more accurate term but suspect some people are comforted by the term passed rather than the say it how it is term, died. And with words and terms I'm happy to let others use terms they are happy using, who am I to say others are wrong. 

I do always notice the misspelling of "hear hear" though but again, wouldn't correct anyone. The grammar police on social media bI find rude very often and wonder why they take on such a role.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: oldtone27 on 16 Jul 2021 09:14AM
I've heard the term 'passed' used over the years, but I think mostly in American films and TV dramas. I wonder if this is in common usage there and is another import?
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 16 Jul 2021 02:08PM
Passed and passed over for died are first recorded in English in mediaeval times in church literature, and have been in use over the centuries in a variety of contexts.  Passed, with or without a word such as 'over', 'away' etc., is more frequently used these days within some communities, some regions, some cultures than others.  I think that it would be right, then, to have mental associations with particular contexts in which one has heard it.  I personally would associate it more with some sorts of Christianity than others, for instance.

The concept of dying = passing is that dying can be seen as passing from one state to the next. 

If you believe that there is another life/existence/incarnation after death, then when you die, you pass on from this existence to that next existence.  If you don't believe in another existence, you can still believe in death as the point at which you pass from being to not being, from life to death.

Think of it perhaps as analogous to 'being born' and 'coming into this world'.  Personally, I haven't come across anyone express irritation or annoyance in relation to the latter expression as an alternative for the former, although for all I know maybe some people do find it annoying.

Thus for many users of the term 'passed', it isn't a euphemism, it's simply either an alternative way of expressing what is happening, or just an everyday word that they can't get hung up about.  But if it's not a way of describing dying that you're familiar with, it can, obviously, jar.

I must admit that having a linguistic bent, I find it funny how old words, phrases, expressions etc. can become 'new' again.  Shakespeare seemed content to use 'they' as a gender-neutral singular pronoun, and when I was younger it was still ok to use it that way, but these days if you use it that way, you risk being accused of misusing English to deny people their gender identity or whatever.

English is a fantastic language with an amazing vocabulary and an amazing number of dialects, but oh dear, the potential for clashes!
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: oldtone27 on 16 Jul 2021 03:58PM
Quote
Shakespeare seemed content to use 'they' as a gender-neutral singular pronoun, and when I was younger it was still ok to use it that way, but these days if you use it that way, you risk being accused of misusing English to deny people their gender identity or whatever.


I thought that nowadays 'they' was the preferred pronoun for people who regard themselves as gender neutral. Certainly is for one New Scientist columnist.

Treading on eggshells is easier than navigating the fashions of language.
Title: Re: Thinking of you all
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 16 Jul 2021 04:38PM
Quote
Shakespeare seemed content to use 'they' as a gender-neutral singular pronoun, and when I was younger it was still ok to use it that way, but these days if you use it that way, you risk being accused of misusing English to deny people their gender identity or whatever.


I thought that nowadays 'they' was the preferred pronoun for people who regard themselves as gender neutral. Certainly is for one New Scientist columnist.

Treading on eggshells is easier than navigating the fashions of language.
I think it probably is their preferred pronoun, but what I find difficult is that some people twitch if you use it for someone who identifies as male or female not as neutral or whatever.  Mind you, when I discovered that Finnish apparently doesn't use gendered pronouns, I found myself wishing heartily that English didn't.  Gosh, how angsty some people can get if you use 'they' rather than 'he' or 'she' when they consider the gender to be obvious.

Where I laugh at myself is that when I'm talking with people from outside my area, I usually use what I consider to be a fairly standardised form of English, but just once in a while I find I've used a regional word and not realised that it was regional.