Author Topic: BBC moan (plus thread-drift)  (Read 1182 times)

Sunny Clouds

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Re: BBC moan (plus thread-drift)
« Reply #30 on: 21 Sep 2021 07:33PM »
I want to reply but I went to an exercise class today then did a little shopping.  A couple of incidents happened on the way back that left me rather stressed and now I've got my usual post-activity crash. 

Bear with me because I want to re-read your really interesting stuff tomorrow or the day after and respond.
(I'm an obsessive problem-solver, so feel free to ignore any suggestions or solutions I offer, even if they sound terribly insistent.)

On the edge

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Re: BBC moan (plus thread-drift)
« Reply #31 on: 22 Sep 2021 11:47AM »
I want to reply but I went to an exercise class today then did a little shopping.  A couple of incidents happened on the way back that left me rather stressed and now I've got my usual post-activity crash. 

Bear with me because I want to re-read your really interesting stuff tomorrow or the day after and respond.


As a postscript my view on deaf/disabled Uni students seems to have been endorsed yesterday by Uni's declaring there are valid reasons not to take them in, and, that diversity nor inclusion trumps qualification.

ally

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Re: BBC moan (plus thread-drift)
« Reply #32 on: 22 Sep 2021 06:34PM »
OTE.  Where is the evidence that supports what you said above?  Just interested

On the edge

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Re: BBC moan (plus thread-drift)
« Reply #33 on: 22 Sep 2021 07:29PM »
OTE.  Where is the evidence that supports what you said above?  Just interested


It was on the News report in Wales yesterday. I'll try to find the newslink.

On the edge

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Re: BBC moan (plus thread-drift)
« Reply #34 on: 23 Sep 2021 10:18AM »
It seems localized to Wales at present? yesterday they did another item about how black students were not getting Uni access either.  Does anyone actually KNOW what basic qualifications are essential for a University placing? All I am getting is discrimination claims but with no descriptions of basic qualifications essential for University acceptances?  There is a view inclusion and diversity is bypassing the academic requirements by default, and then students struggle to succeed with their chosen courses, the deaf being ID's in particular via their issues with English.  This was the reason many dropped out, but the official stance is discrimination.

Sunny Clouds

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Re: BBC moan (plus thread-drift)
« Reply #35 on: 23 Sep 2021 04:40PM »
I'm trying to catch up here.

I think to some extent we're never going to agree on the linguistic thing.  I believe that if you are fluent in language A in linguistic environment B, your brain will be wired to do better at language B than if you had the same degree of learning of language B without having the knowledge of language A.  I think that you think children learn the environmental language best if it's their first language.

But at the same time, I think we agree in terms of whether it's ok to put a child in an exclusively signing environment, although possibly for different reasons.  I don't believe in monolingual education except in the case of those incapable of learning a second language, and to be that mentally impaired, you'd need to struggle in your first language.  You, I think, don't like it because you don't think a sign language should be what I'll call a first language.

Either way, I think we agree that BSL shouldn't be a child's only language unless they are incapable of learning English or other regional language.  But then I struggle to see how a child in this country could be reasonably/properly be educated with access to the internet, so whatever their primary language, they need English.

Incidentally, as a young child with glue ear and spending a lot of time alone reading, I know from looking back at essays I wrote as a child that I had a vast vocabulary of words I didn't know how to pronounce.  I worked that out later, but the vocabulary was there.

That being said, I'm mother tongue English, having started French at the age of about seven and still partly thinking in it (which I think you'd agree doesn't Frenchify my English) and having started to teach myself German from a French textbook whilst still at primary school.  I went to a secondary school where I studied French, German, Italian, Latin, Ancient Greek (Homeric, Attic, Doric), Biblical Greek.  I remain very visual with languages and remember vocabulary better if the language is written in an alphabet I'm fluent in, whether or not that's the alphabet usually used in that language. 

I have very, very strong views about issues relating to university education in the UK, which map onto my views about schooling.  I cheer on today's youngsters when they demand a fairness, no longer willing to put up with a lot of what we did.  In relation to my undergraduate course, the entrance requirements were unfair, some of the subjects very badly taught, the library resources not good, the exams didn't map onto subjects as taught etc.

So ironically, I think that one thing that students in general can benefit from is universities reviewing what adjustments they make for various disadvantages, because my gut feeling is that mostly they result in general improvements for all students.  I also don't believe that having parents wealthy enough to send you to the 'right' schools should give you an advantage at university entrance.  Example of that:- it's now the case that it's no longer rare for what I'll call 'posh' schools in England that are, by virtue of not being state schools, not bound by the national curriculum, to enter their pupils for completely different exams.  I don't mean different subjects, I mean different qualifications.  Some universities appear to treat those as worth more.

There is so much bias in our education system, most of it, I belive, social.  For example, I believe that a large part of educational disadvantage experienced by some racial groups arises from being more likely to be brought up in certain deprived areas. 

Where I live, there are over a dozen state primary schools I can walk to without hurrying in under half an hour.  There are loads of secondary schools, state and private within either short walk or short walk plus one bus travel from where I live.  Massive difference in catchment.  Did you take your child to the right place of worship for a year before admission to that high-performing state school? Could you afford at least half a million for that house in a tiny state school catchment area, or do you have a large income for that school with a wider catchment area but fees?  If not, your child will go to the state school other parents don't want their kids to go to because it's got fewer facilities and fewer wealthy parents willing and able to donate to school funds etc.

So for me, if disabled people, including deaf people, want a better deal for their kids and greater inclusivity, the most important thing to do is to campaign for general fairness. 

But then I've also expressed the view elsethread that for decades now I've been in favour of the model of education that's about clusters of schools or 'houses' within schools, with shared facilities and activities and separate facilities and activities.  I think that that can work for loads of SEND children as well as working for children like myself that had a primarily single sex education but with shared facilities as well.  Badminton?  Pop next door to the boys school.  Woodwork?  Pop next door to the boys school.  Oh hello, there's some boys there that want to join our music group.  And the dance class. 

And as I write that, I suppose that that's exactly what's happening with my nearest Deaf 'unit'.  It's got its own doors and classes, but it's on the same campus as the other 'units' and 'schools'.  You could teach the Deaf pupils no English at all and they'd still pick it up in the playground or on the bus, just as lots of immigrant children from non-anglophone countries pick up English in what seems like no time at all. 
« Last Edit: 23 Sep 2021 07:05PM by Sunny Clouds »
(I'm an obsessive problem-solver, so feel free to ignore any suggestions or solutions I offer, even if they sound terribly insistent.)

On the edge

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Re: BBC moan (plus thread-drift)
« Reply #36 on: 23 Sep 2021 07:22PM »
I take the points and no I don't think BSL as a first language empowers the deaf, neither if used early on does it assist in acquiring the basics of English etc, because as we know once they sign they don't want anything else.  The argument it is their natural tongue doesn't really gel because it isn't the tongue of everyone else, so preference or not they have to have more strings to their bow, if they want work or further education options, because the educational programs are designed for people w are literate in English and able to follow the courses in it.


It's not 'denying' inclusion it is identifying the reality these deaf are struggling to follow coursework because they have a poor background in literacy despite 14 years of pre-education first.  We can't just declare it is discrimination alone that prevents advancement,  hearing or deaf if you fail the exams you are out. Changing the educational bottom-line has to be done so deaf can 'compete.  If they want 'in' then they have to have the same keys.


If a migrant comes to the UK unable to speak or read the language, the very first thing they ask for is tuition to learn, the first thing deaf ask for, is the system to change to them, and that's the difference.  I don't know why the deaf talk themselves down, there is plenty of ability that enables them to adapt.  If we go here or online or anywhere where deaf are adept is exactly what they are and effective with it.  Online I find their standard of English very good, there is just this relentless drive to not focus that in education or the workplace, but to insist discrimination and oppression is rife, don't see it.


Nobody really explains why this is.  The very best deaf school in the entire UK is the Mary Hare Grammar School, an ORAL-based deaf education, this school also supplies 46% of BSL advocates, it is this 'elite' driving it all, again we don't know why that is given they didn't have a signed education themselves but,  fared better without it.  One of their graduates was Doug Alker who became CEO of the RNID, but who was sacked for trying to re-write the RNID itself and turn it into some BSL enclave.


HoH RNID members voted him out because his policies sidelined them in favour of deaf signers.  He then tried to run a disability main group set up by the government and the disabled voted him out for doing the same thing there, guess where he ended up? yup the BDA, the ultimate home of lost cultural causes.  There is still a hardcore who support his view and is very vociferous online using not sign language but English to promote it, go figure.


NO, we won't agree [size=78%]on sign as it is currently portrayed, but I am grateful (Thank You),  a debate is even possible because you would not be able to do that on a BSL Deaf site, I tried as did others.  They are closed sites with closed minds.  I waiting now for the huge arguments to start regarding Coronation Street and the hysterical deaf on there.  Pretty good example of supporting my view really![/size]


Sunny Clouds

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Re: BBC moan (plus thread-drift)
« Reply #37 on: 23 Sep 2021 08:51PM »
"...as we know once they sign they don't want anything else..."

I'm still struggling with the way you seem to lump all first-language BSL people together.  It just doesn't compute in terms of the people I've known in my life.  If I go to my local deaf centre, I don't find that typical of the atmosphere.  I haven't found it with BSL users in my local community.

Do you feel this way about those that learn first in Erse/Gaelic or Welsh?

"...If a migrant comes to the UK unable to speak or read the language, the very first thing they ask for is tuition to learn..."

Not our local schoolkids.  They go to school and pick up English really, really fast.  Maybe that depends on the schools, but for all that I've a lot of criticisms of schools, they can't stop kids learning in the playgrounds or dining room or changing rooms. 

So much school vocabulary has to be learnt in school anyway.  After all, even local dialect words and grammar have to be re-learnt.   

But as I say, what I find very difficult isn't the notion that there are some culturally Deaf people who feel they want to live in a monolingual Deaf & BSL world, and the consequential issues, but the sense that you see all first language BSL users in a way that I'd liken to, say, seeing all Christians as a single group instead of recognising differences such as those between unitarians & trinitarians, between Catholics and Protestants etc.  It just doesn't compute for me. 

But then by analogy linguistically it doesn't bother me if my neighbour uses, say, Creole or Cornish as her child's first language.  The child won't have to have had its first smartphone or laptop long to be typing away in that odd online communication that children use that makes those of us that feel modern using a hug emoticon feel out-of-date, and then they're launched into the world of more conventional stuff.

As for people listening to you, I think we both have communication issues with others when putting our views forward.  I think we're both a bit inclined to spout at length which works for some people (e.g. us reading each other) but not for lots of other people.

Also, just as I can annoy people with my nit-pickiness, I think a couple of your linguistic habits turn off people who might otherwise listen to you.  Seriously.  If I, who have some overlapping views with you, about how all D/deaf children should, subject to their mental ability (which wouldn't exclude many) be taught to a high level of fluency in their local language, which for most purposes in the UK would be English, feel niggly over your turn of phrase that seems to lump all D/deaf children into a single homogeneous blob, then what about people who at present wouldn't agree with you over anything in this?

I think it's worth reading what you write because I'm getting the feel from what you say that there are Deaf people out there that are hostile to learning English at all even when they're capable of it, and that this may be connected with the nature of some Deaf schools.  That was something that, based on where I live, I wasn't aware of as a problem except with maybe a couple of groups/clubs/organisations involving grown-ups somewhere. 

I mentally map it onto what I consider to be a very small minority of people in Scotland who feel that they should be able to stick to using Gaelic all the time and for all purposes.  I find that as unrealistic as if I were to insist on sticking at all times to my regional English.  On the other hand, I can go full-on rant about what I consider to be children's right to speak dialect out of school or even in the playground.

But I don't think you're going to win many arguments over your understandable concerns because whilst I'll be annoyingly nitpicky and say things like "I wish you wouldn't say X when what I think you mean is Y, because if you mean Y, we agree on quite a bit", others mightn't and might stop listening at the point at which they think "We're not a single blob."

Maybe consider how you put your case across and then maybe more besides me might take on board that there are aspects of Deaf education and communities that are different in different places to an extent we weren't seeing in the circles in which we move?

That's not to insult you about your posting style - after all, I've acknowledged my own style has its faults and I'm sure others could point out aspects I'm not aware of in relation to mine.
(I'm an obsessive problem-solver, so feel free to ignore any suggestions or solutions I offer, even if they sound terribly insistent.)

On the edge

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Re: BBC moan (plus thread-drift)
« Reply #38 on: 25 Sep 2021 12:32PM »
I blame current views on inclusion and diversity myself everyone is entitled to anything they say or do etc.  I tend to target a specific area of the Deaf, unfortunately, this gets misconstrued as 'global' criticism of all deaf, it is not of my making, just the nature of the beast really, via the d/D/Hi/HoH/AD and whatever (!) thing.  If you target specific people and areas directly then they mass against, that has been my experience, the extremes of the deaf world hide in plain sight.

If you can show me a way to target specific deaf people and groups who create all these issues let me know.  Online they simply block or ban end of. I share your view rank and file in the few clubs that still exist, exhibit next to none of these extreme views at all, sadly, what they will read is you 'attacking' deaf people since this is how it works when you challenge, and line up against regardless.  That's the strength in the deaf community, they may well not agree with their own extremes, but they will still support them as peers against you as all 'oppressed deaf' together.  That message has been sold to them.

This has led to many reasonable, moderate and adept deaf being ostracised from the community.  You are allowed only one stance regarding the issues of deafness, hearing loss, language, or culture.   I think if everyone on this site agreed with each other all the time, it would be seen boring, and the site exists because we disagreed with the BBC didn't it?

It is up to rank and file to get rid of their extremes, but many are a captive audience really knowing only sign and own social areas, they have this wall up for 'self-protection', but it works against anyone who isn't the same as they are.  Society today is riddled with such areas.  They struggle to communicate outside it, so they stay inside it.  At the same time launch inclusion and access campaigns, they are unlikely (or perhaps unable), to maximise anyway, it is why I go to the root of it all.  We know things like the BSL Bill etc are designed to take the deaf back to a situation that failed generations of deaf people before.


It's sold as a BSL Utopia of some sort, this follows recent campaigns in the USA wanting the same thing. Deaf cohesion is laudable and not at the same time, as it limits inclusion and diversity by default.  I think if you want change enough then you have to stand up.  I'm not a martyr, if I get cut I bleed too. Vested interests are entrenched and will use whatever to ensure you cannot progress.

There really is hardcore of quite adept deaf who are in it for less than inclusive means and want to control things.   There are also support charities who are against it because let's face it, they won't exist if all deaf attain independence.  We made a start years ago by dismissing the dedicated deaf social services here, only 35% could sign properly yet had been controlling deaf lives for 50 years, but the deaf didn't capitalise on it, held back by the fact they are still deaf, still hadn't effective access, communications, or the support to progress. Deaf extremists moved into fill the vacuum. They are very clever people.

Deaf can do everything but hear, but that's the issue isn't it? 68% don't even USE BSL support today. Online we see a rash of 'let's learn BSL',  going on, I ask why?  Is there some view all hearing will learn it? and if they do, all deaf will then abandon generations of deaf social living?  Inclusion will become real? Not going to happen is it?  Deaf inclusion can only be relative unless change happens.

The token representations in media are just a sop to most of it, next week the Blind etc who knows?  Recent inclusions have been a total embarrassment, simply because media doesn't understand inclusion or diversity, didn't consult diverse opinion, but included those instead with an axe to grind to lecture all and sundry on 'what you need to do to talk to deaf people', nobody suggests what the deaf could be doing to facilitate it, or how to address the issues deafness creates or even if we should..


There is no all for one and one for all, we are all making our own headway and we are not good at that.  Neither the disabled or the Hard of Hearing despite being a majority, have the support the deaf extreme does.  Another amble sorry,  x amount of characters only, like BSL, cannot go into detail and detail is where it is at.
« Last Edit: 25 Sep 2021 12:35PM by On the edge »

On the edge

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Re: BBC moan (plus thread-drift)
« Reply #39 on: 25 Sep 2021 12:56PM »
I think in deference to the rest it is time to give this subject a rest lol  I have welcomed a response but the deaf don't come here anyway.

Sunny Clouds

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Re: BBC moan (plus thread-drift)
« Reply #40 on: 25 Sep 2021 01:37PM »
Quote
the deaf don't come here anyway.

I think it could be argued that proportionate to the small number of posters in here (as opposed to lurkers), those of us that are deaf are one of the biggest groups.

Anyway, if you want a rest, that's ok.  I've learnt things from you and I hope you've learnt something from me, even if just a little.

(I'm an obsessive problem-solver, so feel free to ignore any suggestions or solutions I offer, even if they sound terribly insistent.)