Ouch Too

Forum => Health and Disability => Topic started by: JLR2 on 24 Feb 2021 07:27AM

Title: Covid jab
Post by: JLR2 on 24 Feb 2021 07:27AM
Had a call from my GP's surgery and asked if I'd like to pop down for my share of Astra Zeneca, so 10 to 12 today and I'll have a sore arm :f_smiley:
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on 24 Feb 2021 04:37PM
JLR,

Sorry about your sore arm.

Mr Sunshine had his vaccination today he thinks it was the Pfizer one, I would need to check the paperwork to know.
He was more bothered about having to wait for ten minutes after he had the vaccination than anything else.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: JLR2 on 24 Feb 2021 05:10PM
Hi Sunshine, had my vaccine and so far no sore arm. I arrived within a moment or so of the arranged time and in/out in a couple of minutes. I sat in the car and then went off to do a quick bit of shopping. Talking of shopping that bit of shopping I did buying the gammon from my local butcher really has proved worth it for me. The butcher let me bone and roll my ham in the shop and then use their flatbed Berkel slicer to slice it. The difference in the quality of rashers of gammon compared to the back bacon (sweetcure) is just great. Between the taste and the much reduced water content of the gammon sees me not having to scape the salt deposits of the rashers as they fry.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on 25 Feb 2021 05:17PM
JLR,

Thank is great  :thumbsup:

(How long does the gammon keep for?)
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: KizzyKazaer on 25 Feb 2021 09:09PM
Dare I ask how old you are, JLR?  I had a bit of a surprise on Tuesday when my medical practice phoned to say I was on the list for a Covid jab and they had a slot this Friday (tomorrow!)  As I am 'only' 54, I couldn't understand why I was being called up so early:  I mean, I know the vaccination programme is ahead of schedule but hadn't anticipated hearing anything myself until at least the back-end of March....

Not that I'm going to 'look the gift horse in the mouth', of course!
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 26 Feb 2021 05:49PM
I had my first dose on January 30th so second dose is due in April. I was in group four being CEV due to unstable adrenal insufficiency. I only had a sore arm as it was the Pfizer I had. That seems to be common with the Pfizer. No other symptoms. My daughter should have her second Pfizer in March ready to return to work when her maternity leave ends. 

Hope yours goes okay kizzy.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: JLR2 on 26 Feb 2021 09:32PM
Hi Sunshine, the gammon will last the best part of a year, I've added the vacuum packing device I found in a Lidl store to my kitchen gadgets so I've used it to pack the numerous stacks of sliced gammon (including some gammon steaks)  and stored them in the freezer. The ham shank will be fine for making soup later this week.

Kizzy I'll be 70  in 7 years so not long now. It was the AstraZeneca vaccine which has my friend in Berlin a touch concerned because of the decision of the German government to restrict that vaccine to those under 65. My friend's also concerned about how we will cope if by the time I get over to Berlin she has not had a vaccination jab and going by the news coming out of Germany it could easily be September before she is invited for vaccination. There is a bit of me hoping that my flight will be cancelled just so I can claim a cash refund as the voucher I had was preventing the airline from making such a refund and had an expiry date in April.

As things stand I don't know what restrictions there will be in Germany come July when I'm due to fly out there and in a similar sense I don't know what the rules will be here in the UK come August when I'd be hoping to return home, I certainly couldn't afford to stop in a quarantine hotel.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 27 Feb 2021 12:53PM
I'm assuming that "all legal restrictions will be lifted on June 21st" if conditions are met means that quarantine will end then as that's a legal restriction. So if the conditions are met you should be fine to fly, British laws wise.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: JLR2 on 27 Feb 2021 07:14PM
"British laws wise"

Aye but Fiz we've Nicola Sturgeon running things up here and depending on which way the winds blowing in her circle of nut jobs at the top of what was once a strong party for Scottish Independence she might just decide that only those who are of a transgender nature or worship the very ground she walks on are to be allowed to travel.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: KizzyKazaer on 02 Mar 2021 11:55AM
So you're 63, JLR (see how good my maths is :f_winkeye: )  I think the over-60s are being targeted for jabs next, so you're not far off schedule...

Fiz, mine went fine, just an achey arm during the evening.  I half-expected a headache, but none forthcame;  have read that the Pfizer jab is believed to have less side-effects, so maybe that's why I got off lightly :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: oldtone27 on 02 Mar 2021 12:50PM
We were discussing this topic on our VI group's zoom meeting this morning. Many of the members have now had their first jab. I reckon about half have had no after affects and most of the rest only mild ones such as a sore arm or a day so feeling off colour.

Only one had a bad reaction feeling really unsteady and sick for a couple of days followed three furthers days feeling poorly. Recovered now.

As far a I can tell neither vaccine seems cause more side effects I think it is much more dependant on individual reactions.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: JLR2 on 03 Mar 2021 07:37AM
Aye Kizzy, I'm of the Summer 58 vintage :f_smiley:   I've been a bit lazy this morning that's me just up and have the coffee making its way through the filters.

I don't know if it is just me but I'm getting a feeling bordering on automation in my habits, from waking to going to bed. It's like I'm living on repeat in the same way that a record player will play repeatedly a record on the turntable. Once I've filled the coffee machine (1.8ltr) I fetch the filter into place followed by the grinding of the beans then having put them into the machine scrub out the wee milk jug and rinse out my coffee mug before filling them with milk. The coffee mug of milk is to have when on reaching my couch in the living room I'll take my vitamin D tablet. The routine in the living room is again pure automation, I use one remote control to trigger a separate device, my German satellite box before I use the same remote to turn on my UK device and then the telly. I manually (press a wee button) on the audio connection and then it's off to fetch the coffee and as I sit here right now I know that apart from the date changing as tomorrow arrives it'll be no different.

Having said all that is it any wonder I'm looking forward to going over to Berlin come July?
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: SteveX on 03 Mar 2021 09:43PM
My doctors texted me today, saying I can now book my covid vaccine injection.  quite frankly I'm on the fence and not sure if I will.
Don't get my wrong, I'm not one of the anti vax silly people, I just think at my age and with all my problems it would be wasted on me and better used on someone who needs it more.   
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: JLR2 on 04 Mar 2021 06:39AM
Good morning Steve, I would encourage your taking the appointment as apart from helping yourself should you catch the virus according to some of what I've heard, from time to time, on the news the vaccine does have an impact on the spread of the virus to others.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: oldtone27 on 04 Mar 2021 09:00AM
I agree with JLR. Also you don't need to be concerned about depriving someone else of a jab. They are not being rationed. Only scheduled so that supply can keep up with demand. The worst you can do by having a jab is to delay someone else a day or two.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: ditchdwellers on 04 Mar 2021 11:02AM
Absolutely! Steve, I am in complete agreement with JLR2 and Oldtone. Everyone is entitled to get their jab and their turn will come. I'm having my first jab tomorrow after having had to postpone it from January. 
Of course it's your choice, but I would hate for you to miss out due to some misplaced sense of self sacrifice.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 05 Mar 2021 03:03PM
I'd have the vaccine Steve, you'll be helping to protect your Mum and the soonest done the sooner you can be visiting again and having your takeaway. But you should do it for you too, you're worth it. Our worth is not measurable, it just is.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: KizzyKazaer on 05 Mar 2021 09:25PM
C'mon Steve, you're being a bit daft about this vaccine thing - roll up your sleeve and take it like a man :f_winkeye:
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Frances on 09 Mar 2021 03:15PM
I am Confused. Ryan had first Jab at Local Dr end Jan, I had to go on a trip in a Taxi 24 miles each way .
We both had different makes. Now I have just had an ap for the next one after only  5 weeks
I rang up and said thats early they said 5 weeks is fine,
Now this apt is in a different town 25 miles away. I explained The trouble I have getting in and out of Cars and walking ,
Then I get told they will do a home visit , Good to know!!!,
Why when I asked last time they said no.
I have 9 steps up to the road and as we are no longer allowed to sit in front of Taxi I had to crawl in the back.
Oh says she  ring this number and your local nurse will do It. (Scream !!)
Oh and Ry had one make and I had the other, By the way except for a sore arm no side efffects. :f_doh:
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: KizzyKazaer on 09 Mar 2021 07:44PM
So you should have a home visit, Frances, can't understand either why this wasn't offered first time round!

I suppose what determines which vaccine is given and to whom, is availability and current stock situation at the time - with the Pfizer make, my understanding is that the doses have to be all used up within a given timeframe because of the difficulty in storing it...

At least both you and Ryan have your first doses under your belts (or rather, up your sleeves :f_smiley: )
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on 18 Mar 2021 04:23PM
Frances,

:big_hugs: I hope things go much better for your second dose.


I had a very different experience today, the medical centre I went to is nearby but not my GPs so I was worried about getting lost in a bigger building. There was a security guard at the entrance that asked questions like had we had any Covid symptoms then asked us to use hand sanitizer. Mr Sunshine left to go wait in the car and a lovely lady asked if she could help then pushed me to reception, we got the paperwork then lady 2 pushed me down a corridor and into a room and asked the bloke in the room to give her a shout when she could wheel me back. The bloke was lovely and reassuring, asked questions about allergies etc. The injection itself was painless and afterwards he offered to push me to the car park yes please and that is what he did.

Steve,

If you book the appointment anyway and then decide if you are able to go on the day you might surprise yourself. Booking via my GP texted link  gave me the option to go somewhere local whereas booking from the general NHS website link of click here (https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/coronavirus-vaccination/book-coronavirus-vaccination/)



:big_hugs: :big_hugs: :big_hugs: for everyone who is struggling with this and also anyone in need of hugs at the moment.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 22 Mar 2021 06:27AM
Glad it all went so well Sunny. 

I shall be glad to get my second one done late April. Shielding ends in 7 days time which feels weird as I will have been shielding a year tomorrow I think. Supermarkets are known to be a source of Covid spread so I will continue to get my shopping online fortnightly but I may try and pick up my own prescriptions onc shielding ends because the super volunteers in my town's Facebook isolation group really do deserve some rest. I would have been lost without them over the last year. There are a lot of good people out there helping people.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: ditchdwellers on 25 May 2021 04:39PM
I went to get my second jab and it all became quite interesting! 

My first one, Astra Zeneca,  had me throwing up in the car on the way home. I wasn't asked to wait after the jab and left straight away to come home. Fortunately, I always have sick bags in my bag so I didn't make a mess of my carers car  :f_laugh: 
It's less than a 10min drive from home to the vaccine point. Excruciating headaches followed for a couple of days. 

So this time around, I mentioned my side effects and all the doctors there went into a huddle. Looked at my med list and list of my conditions and then told me that I was too high risk to have the jab in the Parish Hall! They filled in a form and said that I probably had an allergic reaction to the vaccine so needed to have the second one under controlled conditions in hospital. I'm now waiting for a date. 
Why do I have to make life so complicated for myself?  :f_erm:
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 26 May 2021 06:40PM
Wowsers! But I am pleased that they're taking good care of you.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: suessad on 05 Jun 2021 07:10PM
I sat on the fence for a while, as both my sons went down with flu for 5 days after.
As I was still trying to make my mind up NHS sent me a letter stating  ''I was Immunosuppressed and the jab would have little effect for me ''
 { Immunosuppression is the state in which your immune system is not functioning as well as it should. Immunosuppression can be caused by certain diseases but can also be induced by medications that suppress the immune system. Some medical procedures can also cause immunosuppression. }
 Was an eye opener, no-one had told me this before. Yes a few tears of self pity. Guess it didn't help being stuck indoors so long.
My weekly joy was granddaughter,  once a week standing in the front garden talking to me while I stood by open window.
So please don't condemn those who don't ...
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 06 Jun 2021 08:44AM
I wouldn't condemn anyone for choosing not to have the vaccine let alone someone who can't have it for medical reasons. I do hope that it is never compulsory though I do understand that there may be circumstances when some employers night insist on it for protection of others. Many immunosuppressed people with adrenal insufficiency have chosen to have the vaccine anyway although it's unknown how much protection they'll gain from it. It should be personal choice. 

My son is stalling on booking his because he's terrified of needles! I'm unsure whether he will get past that fear.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunshine Meadows on 06 Jun 2021 04:45PM
I had my second jab last week and was okay until two days later when I felt like carp. It seemed to me it had triggered Menieres symptoms of dizziness, nausea and fatigue. Catching up on replies I noticed how we as long terms sick and disabled people are both well prepared for bad days and at the same time the trauma we had when we cope all this time remains.  :big_hugs:

It is so strange to me how anyone who is fit and healthy would think it is okay to say No to the vaccine. We have old wounds of being judged, shouted at or ignored by what seemed like all knowing medical staff having it can feel like saying No because we need to is going to be met with judgement and frowns. Being most at risk in so many ways and having to say No must be awful.

I am kind of rambling there is a point in there somewhere  :big_hugs:
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 06 Jun 2021 08:09PM
I'm due to have my second jab tomorrow, Monday 7 June.

I'm grumbly over a fault in the database.  I got a text just over a week ago (on a Friday) inviting me to get an earlier appointment for my jab.  It had the date in the message American-style, saying I was booked in on 06/07/2021.  I checked my original text, and it  had the date British-style 07/06/21.  I phoned to make sure my booking is ok for the 7th and it was confirmed.

My starting supposition would be that texts like that are field-merge not individually typed, and if I'm right, there's a problem there with incompatible systems, and a serious possibility that a proportion of people not turning up for appointments have had what is for them the 'wrong' text message.

Of course, given how rubbish most of the expensively privately purchased schemes have been in the pandemic, that would be no surprise, but nor would it  be much of a surprise if they'd failed even after all this time to automate it , and have people typing dates into texts like that.  

I looked online and found that if I wanted to bring the appointment forward, I'd have to cancel my original appointment first.  That wasn't a risk I was prepared to take for the sake of the possibility of saving less than a week.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 07 Jun 2021 07:03AM
Sounds like it was manually mistyped. Gosh totally assumed it was automated. 

It's unknown yet how long the vaccine protects you for. I'm expecting Covid to be a thing for a minimum of 2-3 years so I can see we'll be going round again with vaccines.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 07 Jun 2021 09:51AM
Sounds like it was manually mistyped. Gosh totally assumed it was automated.
If it was mistyped, then it was only on a batch of 'come in early' texts, not on the main system because my phone call confirmed the original date (I didn't tell the call handler the correct date before he checked) and the reminder text was a British-style date.

But the book-earlier text, although from NHS booking, had a different style.  For instance, it had my name as well as the booking reference.  I even wonderd for a moment or two whether it could be some sort of scam, but it wasn't an email with a link that could be dodgy and although it mentioned a website, it was the official one.

That being said, as I type this, the fact that it mentioned my name does rather suggest that it was individually typed rather than field merge.  Even so, I still think there's a good chance it was typed by someone looking at a database.  How awful that my default supposition is that there's something wrong with the system when there may not be, just human error.

Normally, this sort of thing just makes me laugh at my own pettiness, it's just the potential for missed appointments that bugged me.  There'd be times (including some very zombied patches over the last few months) when I'd have simply thought "Aargh, I wrote the date wrong on my calendar, it's not next week, it's next month!" but not have got round to booking an 'earlier' appointment until after I'd missed my appointment.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 07 Jun 2021 08:51PM
I had my second vaccine this afternoon.  I'm very tired but I don't think it's got anything to do with the vaccine as such.  I decided to walk to the centre, which took me about 40 min, but was mostly downhill.  I walked a little afterwards, caught a bus then another bus and did a bit of grocery shopping then walked home.  I've not been getting much exercise, so it wiped me out, but I've no excuse not to get more exercise now my ataxia's in remission.

Also, I didn't get much sleep last night, because I was fretting about stuff.  I only got about 4 hours sleep and I'm an 8 hours person, longer when low. Not long before leaving the house, I called the Sams and was on the phone for an hour, outpouring and trying, with the help of a lovely bloke who didn't presume to tell me what to do, to find more ways to feel positive.  But all that was nothing to do with the vaccine.

Then when I got to the centre, I hadn't put my hearing aids in.  As I explained to the lovely people there, without them, volume's a big problem, but with them, clarity's awful, especially if there's a lot of background noise.

The woman in reception told me to sanitise my hands.  I reached for my own gel in my pocket but she was insistent I should use theirs.  But it felt greasy/waxy and I panicked, wiping my hands down my trousers.  I tried to explain I'm obsessive compulsive and my reaction to it wasn't about the virus, it was a compulsive, knee-jerk "Feels greasy, eek, contaminated, must wash!"  I apologised for making a fuss and said how very grateful I am for them all making sure I get vaccinated.

Then was that horrid bit where they ask for an emergency contact number.  I panicked as I explained the only relative I have wouldn't be interested, he doesn't care about anyone except himself, as I had to accept after he made it clear to me this year.

They were all so lovely and kind and I'm terribly grateful.  In the midst of horridness, there's good stuff.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 08 Jun 2021 06:34AM
I'm glad you have had your second vaccine sunny and if you had the Asda-Vinegar then I hope today goes okay as those that have a reaction tend to feel it most the following day. It's such a relief getting the second vaccine done, knowing you are well protected. Or will be in 3 weeks when it reaches its full effect.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 08 Jun 2021 10:02AM
The vaccination centre was very efficient.  The only bit I didn't like was going in because they'd got a long zig-zag of barriers, which of course is a sensible way of doing things when it gets crowded, but there was only one other person there, and he came up really close behind me when I entered.

(I find that sort of thing stressful.  As I've pointedly said to a few men who have taken it to extremes, if I can't trust a man not to get close enough to me to pass on a deadly virus, I certainly don't trust him not to get close enough to knock me over or grope me.  I find that comment so much more effective than pre-pandemic world-weary looks or put-downs like "Is that the best you can do?  You must be desperate!")

But inside, there were swarms of helpers guiding people around.  One bloke was adjusting his manner to different people waiting in the last bit of the queuing system, and with me he sort of lightly danced and gestured where to go and so I made a show of lightly hopping into place, which cheered me up. 

I told him I nearly hadn't come.  I said that I'd read online that the vaccine is a plot to inflict some sort of high-tech thing on you, but when I had the first jab, my hopes of getting a smartphone were dashed and all I got was a free life-saving injection to protect me and those around me.

Which is also what I got this time.

Today, my only poorliness is more fatigue and tears from waking early fretting about stuff and trying to blot it out for hours with a puzzle book, so as yet no problems from the vaccine.  Except not getting a free radio mast to carry round with me.  :biggrin:

BTW, it was indeed the Asda-Vinegar.  I hadn't heard that  nickname for it before, and it's definitely added to my vocabulary for future use.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 14 Sep 2021 02:49PM
It seems I am due a 3rd vaccine this winter. As it's to be 6 months from the second dose that means it'll be mid October onwards. My flu jab is October 4th though now they're saying the vaccines can be given together whereas before they'd recommended 2 weeks between them but with new vaccines evidence evolves plus the Pfizer isn't a mild form of the virus to provoke antibodies like the Asda-Vinegar is so I can't see any problem having the Pfizer and flu jabs together.


I have to say if I was the parent of a school aged teen I wouldn't be giving my teen the vaccine. Mostly as the effects/protection is only months and teens without underlying health conditions have strong immune systems. I think my son's partner will definitely be putting her teen forward for it probably as she was pretty unwell with Covid so knows first hand how ill people can be.


The government have said if numbers rise it may be working from home again. So many large organisations and civil servants still are!
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: lankou on 14 Sep 2021 04:08PM



I have to say if I was the parent of a school aged teen I wouldn't be giving my teen the vaccine.


Surely that is their decision to make.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 14 Sep 2021 08:53PM
I think it varies a lot with the individual youngster  but I see it the way I see things like exercise for children.  If your child cycles or uses a skateboard or rides or climbs or whatever, there's a risk of injury, but if they don't, there's the physical and mental risks attached to not getting exercise and fresh air and fun.  So vaccines carry a risk, but it's relative risk.

I suppose the other thing that's very difficult to quantify is the matter of passing the virus on.  Even if you're vaccinated, you can pass it on, but it seems from what I've read that you're less likely to.  It's hard to get good statistics for that, though, because of symptomless covid.

I find the only a few months argument puzzling.  If I had a child and someone said "Your child's terribly good at cycling, so I don't suppose there's not much chance of injury if there's a careless motorist, but I can let you have a helmet for them.  I'm afraid you can only have it a few months, and it doesn't completely guarantee your child wouldn't get concussion if they get knocked off their bike, but it reduces the risk." I'd accept the offer of the helmet for a few months. 

That's set me musing, though, on what short term and longer-term forms of protection we do or don't use in our lives.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 15 Sep 2021 07:58AM
My son and his partner had Covid, the partner pretty badly so I suspect with their being one bathroom and kitchen the teen probably had Covid despite no symptoms so probably has a level of immunity.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 15 Sep 2021 09:20AM
As an aside, a friend has been waiting for spine surgery for many months, she's in intense pain and can do very little and is on very strong pain relief despite not being able to leave the house. She has had surgery cancelled 3 times in the last month due to lack of ICU beds, she has adrenal insufficiency so is a high risk patient and needs an ICU bed on standby though if she's stable she may go from theatre recovery to HCU. One of the cancellations was on the day and she'd got to the hospital. Each time she has been told that ICU is full mostly of unvaccinated patients with Covid. She's furious at people turning down the vaccines because people like her can't have their surgeries etc.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 15 Sep 2021 12:47PM
Ah, but the unvaccinated community includes (but does not comprise solely of - people being individuals not stereotypes) people who don't believe the virus is real, sometimes even when they get it - if you're in ICU, you could still believe it's 'ordinary pneumonia'; people who don't believe you can develop a vaccination that fast; people who are led to disbelief by the conflict between those that say vaccines keep you alive and those that say you can be vaccinated but get covid, i.e. aren't being given a strong message that vaccines can reduce likelihood of getting it, and if you do, reduce the severity of it; people who have been conditioned by years of antivax propaganda; and people so jaded by years of dishonesty and cronyism and exploitation by powerful politicians, corporate interests etc. that they have stopped trusting that any new big event/situation that changes our lives isn't just one more ruse to control and/or exploit us.   Etc.

And that's the tip of the iceberg. I'm seething with fury over the rubbish communication people have had over all this.   I'm a nitpicker with a degree and postgrad qualifications from two different universities, and I've struggled with the convoluted mess of information.

I'm not justifying all the unvaccinated, just saying that I'm aware that there are many that think that not getting vaccinated isn't endangering others. 
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 15 Sep 2021 02:36PM
Unlike my friend, I don't think the vaccine should be compulsory and I don't feel badly towards anyone who turns down their invitation to have it and value free choice. I don't like the misinformation that I read recently in posts by a friend of a friend which was complete twaddle from a clearly antivaxer but feel people should have the choice. Though I do support it being compulsory for frontline health care workers but sympathise with those that will lose job roles due to not wanting the vaccine. I wasn't sure about having another Covid vaccine but if it's the Pfizer which I trust then I probably will.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 15 Sep 2021 04:05PM
I value free choice, but can think of quite a few job roles where vaccination against a range of diseases is or would be a reasonable requirement.

People don't seem to object to health professionals and soldiers etc. being expected to have certain other vaccinations. 

And likewise, broadly as a society we accept certain limitations on what people are permitted to do or where they're permitted to go based on what precautions they're prepared to take.  E.g. don't ride a motorbike without a helmet, don't drive if you've got epilepsy that's not been under control for a certain period of time (which for some drivers in effect means don't drive if you're not taking epilepsy medication) etc.  There's a whole range of jobs you wouldn't be allowed to do if you didn't cover up open wounds or skin with conditions that cause it to shed.

So I wouldn't object to vaccination being a requirement for a range of jobs, particularly those involving contact with others who don't have a choice whether to come into contact with you, such as police, prison warders, soldiers, health professionals in non-elective treatment areas, front line jobcentre staff, public transport workers not in a closed cab or booth etc.

I suppose one could allow for exemptions by turning the requirements upside down, as it were, and say that where I, as a member of the public, am required to do something or am entitled to do something, I am entitled to do it in a vaccine-protected environment once vaccines have been available to all, subject to  limited exceptions.

But then I'm a bit of a rebel in saying that I think that those that need care, be it elders or younger disabled people, and who get it in an institution, are entitled to expect that staff should have flu jabs and that if they don't, the resident should have the right to be moved to an institution where they are, at no cost to the resident.

Oh dear, bolshy me.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 15 Sep 2021 04:39PM
More musings...

I suppose for me, there is a covid passport issue insofar as I don't like the fact that in some contexts they're being enmeshed in a modern NHS app system with facial recognition, with involvement of private companies.

I don't like what's happened in China and, to a lesser extent, in some other parts of the world, where your face enables you to be tightly tracked and monitored, and it's my understanding that not many countries in the world have as many CCTV cameras in public places as ours. 

So I find myself wondering how far my views on vaccine passports are coloured by my concept of them.  A vaccine passport as a printed item, perhaps with a photo on it, or with a name, address and also the reference number of a photo ID doesn't bother me in the same way.  Perhaps it should.  If the government is happy to let private companies have loads of NHS data, why wouldn't they let them have loads of passport data and driving licence data etc?  The government is pushing for mandatory voter ID, which in practice means intense pressure for every adult to have photo ID, probably in part via introducing a voter card or via introducing a photo NHS card.

Oh dear, so many tangled issues.  I believe in vaccinations, I want vaccinations, but the increasing passion by successive national governments in the UK for more and more ID and entwining of databases make this seem like just another way of deepening that, which isn't just something I don't like, it's something that seriously frightens me.

Oh well.  So much for my thinking my thoughts on this were clear.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 15 Sep 2021 05:08PM
Oh well, whilst I dither over whether we should or shouldn't expect others to have covid jabs, and if so, who, and whether or not they should have to prove it etc., I've had a text telling me my GP's got some flu jabs and to phone to book an appointment.  I phoned and was told just to drop in any time they're open.

So at least I can reduce my likelihood of dying from flu as well as reducing my likelihood of dying from covid.  Now can I have a vaccine against dangerous drivers?
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 16 Sep 2021 07:45PM
I've been flu jabbified and I'm very tired but I don't think it's actually the jab that's done it, just my usual go out, be active, come home, wilt thing.

Mind you, that was improving and it's worsened and I now think that a significant aspect is inadequate fluid, which would then leave me wilting if I get more exercise.

How easy it would be, though, having had a jab, to come home and attribute how I felt to that jab.  My bowels aren't very happy today, which I know is down to what I ate yesterday, but again, if I hadn't made the connection, how easy it would be to think the flu jab had upset my gut.

I'm not dismissing side-effects.  I'm aware that people can and do get side-effects from flu jabs.  I'm just musing on how I, and I assume (?) others, can find myself noticing things more if I've done something different.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: ditchdwellers on 27 Sep 2021 11:56AM
I've got my booster Covid jab on Thursday.
Has anyone else had a booster yet? Any effects?
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 27 Sep 2021 01:34PM
I haven't had my booster.  I haven't read any horror stories about them yet, so do try not to get any melodramatic side-effects before I have mine!

 :xfingers: :f_hug:

Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 27 Sep 2021 01:51PM
There's a few that have had boosters in the adrenal insufficiency group who are immunocompromised and none have had any side effects. Hope all goes smoothly for you DD. I'm confident about the Pfizer, it doesn't introduce the virus to our bodies so side effects are rare.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 02 Oct 2021 05:06PM
There's contraversy on social media. I hadn't realised until the last few days that the government have requested the 500,000 who are immunosuppressant to have a third primary Covid vaccine which should be 8 weeks after their second vaccine. This is because they have discovered people who are immunosuppressant due to transplant or chemo etc aren't very protected by two vaccines like most people. However the government have also said that people over 50 and the CEV should have a booster vaccine 6 months after their second vaccine as it's been found that protection from the vaccine reduces over time. People are being called for their boosters before the immunosuppressed are receiving their 3rd primary vaccine causing a lot of upset amongst that immunosuppressed group. It's all a bit of a mess really! I'd go so far as to say that the immunosuppressed must be about six months after their second vaccine now so due a booster anyway so causing this cufuffle when it's going to mean little difference timing wise is bizarre. If a 3rd primary vaccine was needed 8 weeks after their 2nd then it should have happened 4 months ago not now. Now the immunosuppressed are upset with the CEV who are being called before them! What a mess!
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 02 Oct 2021 06:49PM
I wish I was surprised by this, but I'm not.  Our current government's approach isn't one of competence.  I wish I thought it was just about muddying the waters whilst they get on with their political careers, financial futures and 'chumocracy', but I don't, I think a lot of it is callous incompetence.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: ditchdwellers on 03 Oct 2021 02:59PM
I had my third booster on Thursday evening, four months after my last jab.
My first two were AZ. The first shot I had an extremely adverse reaction to, with the second giving very few effects. This third booster was Pfizer and I have been absolutely knocked for six.


The redness and swelling on my arm spreads from my elbow to my shoulder around the jab site. Today is the the first day I have emerged from the gloom of the bedroom, as my headaches were so bad I couldn't tolerate light. Apart from the the necessary shuffling down the hall to the bathroom I should clarify. My pain levels have been through the roof so I had to resort to the Oramorph which I really don't like doing but it didn't leave me any option.


I still can't really eat anything yet. I've eaten a few rich tea biscuits and don't feel like I can keep anything else down.


I hope this doesn't put anyone off getting their booster jabs  :f_laugh:
I'm just feeling sorry for myself at the moment. And to be honest it was a bit ill timed, as it coincides with the end of this latest series of cluster headaches.


I know I'm over the worst of the side effects and tomorrow will be much better than today!
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: ditchdwellers on 03 Oct 2021 03:04PM
I should add that I'm both immunosuppressed and CEV so I have no idea why I was called now for my booster. The nurse did say I would need another one before too long though. Whoopee.....
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 03 Oct 2021 03:13PM
I'm assuming (?) that the logic is that if you're that poorly after a jab/booster, you'd be dead or very badly ill after the virus, so it's the lesser of two evils, but even so, it's a horrid situation to be in.

 :big_hugs:
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: On the edge on 04 Oct 2021 10:49AM
I'm due my 3rd on Wednesday. I had no reactions to the other two (Pfizer), and don't have currently any major health issue. My only query is they want to offer me the flu jab at the same time.  I said no to that.  I 'may' get it later IF they can convince me it is effective, as we had no exposure to last season's strain is it effective for this one?
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: ditchdwellers on 04 Oct 2021 01:41PM
Interesting question, that one. My husband had his flu jab last month and that's not something I'd even thought about.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 04 Oct 2021 06:19PM
Was that a 3rd primary or the booster that you had DD? Sorry that you've had such a strong reaction, that's more unusual with the Pfizer. The Pfizer appears more effective against the variants so it's good in a way that you've had the Pfizer rather than the A-Z maybe.


As for the flu jabs, they run on a 3 year cycle so this year's vaccine protects against a different set of flu strains than last year's vaccine. If there is a problem at all it will be in 4 years time when we'll be 5 years away from having received protection from a third of the strains of flu we can currently protect ourselves from and won't have the immunity we would never normall be without for longer than 3 years. Personally I'm not hugely worried about that. Unfortunately the people who might show any vulnerability to that will be elderly residents in residential and nursing homes mostly as they are the highest risk groups to flu.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: ditchdwellers on 05 Oct 2021 02:44PM
Hi Fiz,
Sorry but I'm a little confused about whether this was a third primary shot or a booster. All I know is that I was sent the text to make the appointment so went!
I spoke to a GP at my surgery yesterday as I wanted to query the severity of the situation and spoke to a GP who interestingly also sits on the local CCG Advisory committee for Covid vaccinations. He questioned me in detail about my jab reaction. Fortunately I already take daily prescription antihistamines and the GP thinks that things could have been very different for me if I hadn't been. He is recording my side effects as a likely allergic reaction and said if there is a further vaccinations offered down the line then I must discuss it with a doctor beforehand, but he clearly said I should probably not have one. I'm quite happy to do that as I have been so unwell.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: On the edge on 06 Oct 2021 11:30AM
Mine is a 3rd booster jab, as I understand it Covid jabs lose effectiveness after 6 months, I had 2 for this year but the 3rd is being brought in early because of dual fears about the flu infections this year.  My only concern issues having covid and the flu at the same time.  One in each arm.  I just wonder how many jabs the body can take? and they want shingles jabs as well so we are talking 6 jabs a year currently. 


My partner has B12 as well.... I don't know if the original Pfizer jab was even designed to counter the delta variant as when it came out it was to address the Kent one, since then 4 different variants have emerged, some from S Africa and S America.  NOT Helped by Boris saying come one, come all!
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 06 Oct 2021 12:31PM
I'm thinking of the multiple jab thing.  Obviously there were all the scare stories about MMR that have left understandable concerns, but on the other hand I recall as a child having more than one vaccination together, I just don't remember which.

That being said, I fully accept that it's an issue that we might all ponder, when you look at what our bodies do or don't cope with and for me a key moment was a few years back reading a bit of research tht showed that most of the bus rails sampled on our local buses (in an urban area) had faecal matter with germs in it on them. 

As someone with weird all/nothing 'germ' panics that I have to constantly damp down, I got very worried when I read that.  But the more I thought of it, the more I went back to basics on it and overall quantity that in terms of the pandemic is being referred to as 'viral load'.  We wash hands and wear masks and avoid touching faces not with an expectation (if we're realistic) that we'll get rid of all traces of sars-cov-2, but that we'll reduce it to a level at which our bodies can get rid of it unharmed.

That then takes us back to ordinary health precautions against viruses, bacteria & fungi.  We don't mostly get rid of them all, we reduce to a level our bodies can fight them.  Indeed, that's what traditional vaccines do.

Ironically, our efforts to reduce our contact with germs has led to some clinical researchers to draw a connection between overly sterile babyhood and childhood leukemia, and they've developed what they nicknamed a 'gloop' (they'll probably give it a fancy name if it becomes widely used) that consists of a mix of bacteria to give to babies, to give their immune system a kick start so it functions properly.

On the other hand, research has also shown all sorts of connections between things like gut microbiota and obesity, and is now even showing links between things like a range of bacteria and viruses and some sorts of dementia, so the notion that we need to come into contact with some germs to be healthy isn't an argument that we shouldn't try to avoid too much contact, or that we shouldn't be warier with germs our bodies find harder to handle.

So it's actually perfectly natural for us all to have concerns about how much our bodies can cope with in terms of our immune systems, because we live in a world where we're surrounded with germs and other things our immune systems might react to as if they were germs (e.g. pollen, various foods etc.) and getting the balance between not enough and too much is difficult.

That being so, I won't scorn people's concerns about how many vaccines to have at once; but on the other hand, I try personally to weigh it against a few other things, including how much our bodies cope with all at once anyway in terms of types of germs at once as opposed to quantity of a single type of germ at once, and what's realistic in terms of an underfunded and short-staffed NHS giving out vaccines.

I may be wrong, but the way I see it is this.  Every time you split apart your flu and covid booster jabs, that's two appointments not one.  That then delays either your other jab as you go to the back of the queue, or delays someone else's jab.

Even if it wasn't my other jab that was delayed and even if I didn't care about that other person whose jab was delayed, I have a vested interest in as many people as possible getting their jabs and boosters, because I reckon personally that the risk to my health of having flu and covid jabs together is less than the risk to my health of sitting next to someone on a bus that is still waiting for their first or second jabs whilst those of us onto boosters get them.

On the politics of it, personally I feel that if someone doesn't want both boosters together, they should be the one that goes to the back of the queue after the first one behind others that are still waiting.  I think that that would be a fair compromise.

I feel that way about a Christmas event I'm thinking of booking a place on.  Some performances are specifically socially distanced + immunity passport only.  I've applied for my NHS letter and I'll book for one of those performances.  A nice compromise between those of us that want to be more wary and those that don't. 
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 06 Oct 2021 06:33PM
Technically Ote this is the first booster vaccine being given at the moment as the original vaccines were a course of two injections so they weren't boosters. So this is the first booster for the vulnerable and older people only at the moment.


The WHO has stated that evidence says that having both the flu and Covid vaccines at the same time is safe and effective.


However PHE recommends preferably having a 7 day gap between them not for safety or effectiveness reasons, but so that any reaction can be traced back to a specific vaccine. The Pfizer vaccines are not live neither is the flu vaccine for 18-64 year olds so our bodies won't be battling anything with these vaccines.


The Asda-Vinegar and the flu vaccines for children and the flu vaccine for adults 64+ do have mild live elements to them so personally I wouldn't want two vaccines with live elements to them however mild they are. But I am under 65 so my flu vaccine won't be live and as I understand it the boosters are Pfizer's so I would be happy to have them the same day if offered the Pfizer when I go for my flu. But if I had a choice I would follow the PHE guidance of a 7 day gap.


Don't you just love that the WHO and PHE have different advice!
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 06 Oct 2021 06:59PM
Quote
Don't you just love that the WHO and PHE have different advice!

I don't like it.  I want everything to do with the human body to be simple and straightforward and absolutely certain.

Oh dear.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 06 Oct 2021 07:07PM
To be fair, the WHO has said that having the two together is safe and effective. PHE don't say otherwise, there advice to have a 7 day gap between vaccines is solely so that any reaction can be pinpointed to one vaccine, perhaps for data purposes only. But nevertheless it is conflicting advice.


And with the medical knowledge I have, I wouldn't want two vaccines with any live element in them together but as said, because I think the boosters will be Pfizer people won't be having two live vaccines so that's okay.


There's upset that we are giving our elderly and vulnerable boosters when the citizens in deprived countries haven't had any vaccines saying we should be giving out vaccines to those without before boostering our own. It's a point our government won't be able to please everyone on.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 06 Oct 2021 08:03PM
A difficult balance.

I wonder whether it's really not possible to make larger quantities of vaccines to share.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 06 Oct 2021 08:36PM
I can see both sides. We could have given away far more surplus vaccines and not provided boosters but I do also see that this pandemic has increased our countries debt mahusively and so can't make that massively worse which hits our poorest the most as proved with the rise in VAT plus the government want to keep the vulnerable and over 50's protected as many work and contribute into government coffers. The only vaccine made in the UK is the Asda-Vinegar and that has been sold to the NHS on a cost only basis with no profit and we've given away alot of Asda-Vinegar vaccines already but it's a drop in the Ocean compared to other countries needs. I tend to feel it's like oxygen masks on a flight, if we don't put our masks on first we are unable to help others in need.


Once countries are well covered, I think an international agreement for countries to help lower economic countries get vaccines is necessary and should be done.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: On the edge on 08 Oct 2021 10:40AM
I'm thinking of the multiple jab thing.  Obviously there were all the scare stories about MMR that have left understandable concerns, but on the other hand I recall as a child having more than one vaccination together, I just don't remember which.

That being said, I fully accept that it's an issue that we might all ponder, when you look at what our bodies do or don't cope with and for me a key moment was a few years back reading a bit of research tht showed that most of the bus rails sampled on our local buses (in an urban area) had faecal matter with germs in it on them. 

As someone with weird all/nothing 'germ' panics that I have to constantly damp down, I got very worried when I read that.  But the more I thought of it, the more I went back to basics on it and overall quantity that in terms of the pandemic is being referred to as 'viral load'.  We wash hands and wear masks and avoid touching faces not with an expectation (if we're realistic) that we'll get rid of all traces of sars-cov-2, but that we'll reduce it to a level at which our bodies can get rid of it unharmed.

That then takes us back to ordinary health precautions against viruses, bacteria & fungi.  We don't mostly get rid of them all, we reduce to a level our bodies can fight them.  Indeed, that's what traditional vaccines do.

Ironically, our efforts to reduce our contact with germs has led to some clinical researchers to draw a connection between overly sterile babyhood and childhood leukemia, and they've developed what they nicknamed a 'gloop' (they'll probably give it a fancy name if it becomes widely used) that consists of a mix of bacteria to give to babies, to give their immune system a kick start so it functions properly.

On the other hand, research has also shown all sorts of connections between things like gut microbiota and obesity, and is now even showing links between things like a range of bacteria and viruses and some sorts of dementia, so the notion that we need to come into contact with some germs to be healthy isn't an argument that we shouldn't try to avoid too much contact, or that we shouldn't be warier with germs our bodies find harder to handle.

So it's actually perfectly natural for us all to have concerns about how much our bodies can cope with in terms of our immune systems, because we live in a world where we're surrounded with germs and other things our immune systems might react to as if they were germs (e.g. pollen, various foods etc.) and getting the balance between not enough and too much is difficult.

That being so, I won't scorn people's concerns about how many vaccines to have at once; but on the other hand, I try personally to weigh it against a few other things, including how much our bodies cope with all at once anyway in terms of types of germs at once as opposed to quantity of a single type of germ at once, and what's realistic in terms of an underfunded and short-staffed NHS giving out vaccines.

I may be wrong, but the way I see it is this.  Every time you split apart your flu and covid booster jabs, that's two appointments not one.  That then delays either your other jab as you go to the back of the queue, or delays someone else's jab.

Even if it wasn't my other jab that was delayed and even if I didn't care about that other person whose jab was delayed, I have a vested interest in as many people as possible getting their jabs and boosters, because I reckon personally that the risk to my health of having flu and covid jabs together is less than the risk to my health of sitting next to someone on a bus that is still waiting for their first or second jabs whilst those of us onto boosters get them.

On the politics of it, personally I feel that if someone doesn't want both boosters together, they should be the one that goes to the back of the queue after the first one behind others that are still waiting.  I think that that would be a fair compromise.

I feel that way about a Christmas event I'm thinking of booking a place on.  Some performances are specifically socially distanced + immunity passport only.  I've applied for my NHS letter and I'll book for one of those performances.  A nice compromise between those of us that want to be more wary and those that don't.


MMR is a moot point with me.  My child became autistic.  Like all responsible parents, I agree to have my son have his essential jabs like MMR.  My son shut down in 47 hours.  Prior to the jabs he was happy babbling baby into everything, overnight he stopped totally communicating or taking an interest in anything.  He had regular checks and they said he had been progressing very well.


After MMR I had a different child entirely with huge issues.  Obviously, medicos insisted MMR had nothing to do with it at all, he was born autistic and symptoms/behaviour didn't kick in immediately that's all.  Others suggested tough, a percentage of vaccinated will get an adverse reaction no vax is 100%, just bad luck.


The reality is we were never really told about how/why 'instant' shutdowns occur. What else were we to think, that the only common factor was the MMR jab. We were suss everybody defended MMR because the alternative was worse for most, that didn't explain if the MMR jab was responsible in some way at all, just more questions than answers.  Worse was to come the respective health services wanted to know why he shut down and quizzed us like we are responsible for it.  We were treated like criminals the first few months.


At the time autism was just viewed as bad behaviour or bad parenting.  Being deaf I had to fight a lot of people for a very long time to keep my son.  I won through but the trauma of it all was horrific.  He had a breakdown was taken to the hospital and 4hrs in,  they just told me to take him home he was disrupting the ward, 5am I had to take him home no treatment or referral the dr said 'we treat broken bones here not broken minds..'


I think many parents now can think themselves fortunate autism is better understood than it was then.  However the nagging thought at the back of my mind, was, MMR, did it trigger something?  There was no similar case that was comparable and no explanations given. Medical areas just wanted to blame someone or something else.  If I had time again I would not have agreed to MMR.  I don't think shut up and accept collateral damage is always possible was a viable explanation.  I had none really.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 08 Oct 2021 11:54AM
I can understand why people would be concerned about MMR.  Personally, if I'd only seen the original research, I'd also be concerned.

Wakefields's study did provoke a lot of thought, such as yours, as to unanswered questions.   The problem is, though, that it was a very small sample (a cohort of seven) and made no distinction between causation and correlation.  There were other problems with it.

There have been quite a few studies since then and none have been able to show any causation, so personally I'm with those that believe the later more detailed and careful research.

I think a lot of things like this are difficult, and we each have different thought processes.  You see, life functions best if usually we take the shortest route to understanding something, and look for the familiar and obvious.  That literally saves lives.  Doctors are also taught to take that approach as a starting point "Look for horses not zebras."

I'm the sort of person that's the opposite, which can annoy people, but at the same time has my use in contexts where analysis and hair-splitting are useful. 

That being said, given that throughout history we've tried to make sense of things, there'll always be a clash between those that have different views on the cause of something.  If people didn't challenge the status quo, we'd never learn anything.

I do believe that there are factors in relation to autism that aren't understood and could be.  Whether they will be will depend, I cynically believe, on whether anyone (or should I say which big company or government) will fund it.  I suspect that given that drug companies probably don't see money in it, research will probably be funded by government in a different sort of country from ours or by crowdfunding or personal sponsorship.

You can tell that the focus of my cynicism isn't so much on the value of research as on which research is carried out and which is pushed by financial and other interests.  Not quite the same as your concerns, but not polar opposites.

I went through a phase in the pandemic when I had great hopes that the new long-covid movement, many people working together and liaising with groups with existing problems, would trigger a load of research into and understanding of the aftermath of inflammation.  That could help people with a whole range of conditions, physical and mental, especially those that get written off dismissively.

But I now don't think that'll happen unless a big drug company thinks there's money in anti-inflammatory meds, and even then, that'll probably narrow thinking not widen it.  And with a government that's made it clear by its behaviour that it's privatising as much as it can of health services, there are a lot of conditions, not just those with an inflammatory effect, but others we don't fully understand, like autism, that are seen as too expensive or too much hassle to treat.  (Unless you can pay a private company with friends in parliament to lock people up.)

Random example of area of research that had support then lost it politically - certain politicians such as IDS got terribly interested in epigenetics when it suited their idea that benny-scrounging chavs (other insulting terms are available) were changing genetically to become lazier or more antisocial or whatever, and that they then passed this down the generations.

There were problems with this notion, not least because it then poses nasty questions about how far politicians like that would go with eugenics.  But it's all gone quiet on that front publicly - maybe wasn't as useful to those politicians as they hoped?

So research into not just our genetics, but what triggers particular genetic traits could be really helpful yet really dangerous.  And that's not the only sort of research one could say that of.  Ugh, messy.

Which brings me back to autism and MMR.  I remember how much impact it had on me when I encountered a fight back of a different sort.  Neuroatypical people speaking out with a challenging thought I'll encapsulate as "So you think autism is worse than death?"  I thought how if I had a child, I'd prefer autism to death, but I'm not sure how I'd feel now thinking of how our society treats people with autism and similar & related conditions.

After all, a challenge for you and me - where MMR is given, parents are more likely to complete the course than if you give the three jabs separately.  Each disease carries different risks.  Maintaining herd immunity against rubella protects mothers from it, reducing the number of deaf babies.  Hmm.  Deafness versus autism?  Well, you'd be in a better position to compare which people get treated worse by society.  And that's without considering the level of risk, or risk of other conditions, or even that when you choose whether to have your baby vaccinated, hopefully either way, you're there to fight their corner whatever the outcome, but if you reduce herd immunity, it's someone else that has the problem.  Ah, but if it's your baby that has the problem, what if you can't look after them?  Still someone else's problem.

Aargh!  So as I say, whilst I disagree with your interpretation of the overall research into MMR & autism, I think we'd agree that these are horrible decisions for parents to make.

I use that as an example of how whilst I disagree with your interpretation of the MMR & autism research,  I think we'd agree that there are always lots of vested interests when it comes to looking into things like causes, triggers, treatments etc. of health, impairment & difference issues.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 08 Oct 2021 01:57PM
On a different note, having had my flu jab, and based on what I've recently said on here, I mused about alternative approaches.

What if I'd said "Not yet, call me when I can have both flu and covid booster, and give this appointment to someone who needs it more."  I think that would just have messed up the system.  If you can call it a system.

GPs in a mess over shortages & delays in flu jabs, some weird messy system over where and when to get booster jabs. 

So there's not really much say anyway. When I got my first covid jab, I said "If there's any choice, give me the one others don't want" but there wasn't a choice anyway.

I wonder how many people like me who'd have been perfectly happy to have flu jab and covid booster together are having them separately whilst others who want to be more cautious are only offered the jabs together?  Daft. 

Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 08 Oct 2021 07:23PM
I found out the difference between a third primary Covid vaccine and the boosters. The third primary is the standard dose but the boosters are half doses. So the Covid boosters we are getting are half the strength of the original vaccines. They clearly think that lower dose will top up our protection enough. I can see why the immunosuppressed will be getting a third vaccine so the full dose rather than a booster too.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: lankou on 08 Oct 2021 07:44PM
I am getting my 3rd "jab" next week, the venue is however 25 miles away.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: On the edge on 08 Oct 2021 08:34PM
On a different note, having had my flu jab, and based on what I've recently said on here, I mused about alternative approaches.

What if I'd said "Not yet, call me when I can have both flu and covid booster, and give this appointment to someone who needs it more."  I think that would just have messed up the system.  If you can call it a system.

GPs in a mess over shortages & delays in flu jabs, some weird messy system over where and when to get booster jabs. 

So there's not really much say anyway. When I got my first covid jab, I said "If there's any choice, give me the one others don't want" but there wasn't a choice anyway.

I wonder how many people like me who'd have been perfectly happy to have flu jab and covid booster together are having them separately whilst others who want to be more cautious are only offered the jabs together?  Daft.


My GP doesn't seem to want to know us anymore lol Covid jabs are 5 miles away, flu jabs we heard nothing, but locally the Chemist will do them for free so I will go for that.  Had my 3rd or is it 2nd (?!?!) jab Wednesday no issue and nil reactions either but they said no double jabs with the usual flu, so they are avoiding that.


Today trying to pick up a repeat prescription was a nightmare and I couldn't get it in the end, they suddenly changed a 48-hour (2 day wait), to a 5 day one for some unexplained reason, which has left my partner with no medication for 4 days and the chemist and GP don't operate on weekends.  Taking advice she can manage 48 hours without some tablets but it gets debatable for 4 days.  I will have to go to the GP again on Monday to try and get tabs earlier, but today they didn't want to know and the surgery is like Fort Knox and they are shouting through masks, not helpful when I cannot hear!


I've lost faith in the NHS to be honest.  I think the staff are all burned out and don't want to know now.



Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 08 Oct 2021 09:31PM
I find it scary about the NHS.  But the dismantling of it started years ago so the only way we'd get it back or something equally comprehensive would be something that would scare the government big time.  I seriously believe the only reason we have the modern welfare state, introduced in two steps after the two world wars, is fear by politicians that returning military personnel would start a revolution if not given proper welfare.

That being said, I think our current politicians would be more frightened of losing their money than their political positions or their lives.  The pandemic didn't do that.  I wonder whether the global fuel crisis, coupled with all sorts of issues surrounding property as a form of investment might do it.

In the meantime, there's not much we can do in relation to jabs except trying to get what we need as best we can.

But as regards healthcare in general, my hope for the future is people pulling together, providing the care that the politicians should be spending taxes on, if they taxed the mega-rich fairly, but won't.  For me what symbolise it are two things I  keep mentioning to people. 

(1) 3D printed mechanical hand/arm prosthetics based on a Victorian design with a sort of pulley system that apparently works quite well.  The people that came up with the modern design have made it so you can download the stuff you need for free.  (I don't have the jargon, but I think of it as the 'recipe'.)

(2) the current project trying to develop a way of making insulin that can be patented as open source for non-profit use only.  (You can't patent insulin, only the means of production.) 

No, it's not as good as a comprehensive welfare state, but I cling onto it.  Who knows but that maybe in the not terribly distant future, someone will design what I'll call a 'free to download vaccine recipe'.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 09 Oct 2021 11:56AM
That's really poor ote. I've read that pharmacists can dispense emergency prescriptions for up to 48 hours without a script but have never heard of anyone ever doing that so I have no idea if it's true.


I ended up without a Buprenorphine patch on for a few days as my pharmacy hadn't got my dose and needed to order it in. I'm due for my GP to send my 4 weekly script through to the chemist this Thursday and although I will still have 2 patches I think I am just going to ask for my 4 patches so that in future I am never without one should there be lack of stock again. It's a scary place to be. I'm only just on an even keel because the patches take 72 hours to build up to full plasma Buprenorphine levels so it was a difficult few days. With me, it was a pharmacy failure rather than my GP, I am so thankful for a good GP. At times I briefly consider moving areas but my GP isn't one I would choose to lose though she only works 2 days a week.


My GP surgery is a long way from pre-Covid care though. I would normally see more GP fortnightly but have seen her twice in 19 months and phone calls are just about what medications I need whereas my GP had previously been an amazing help with sorting out my mental health problems but there's no time for that now.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 09 Oct 2021 12:30PM
Having had problems with scrips in the past, I now try to remember to re-order when I've got at least two week's supply left.  I shouldn't have to do that, though.

A few years back, I had a problem with a couple of scrips going missing in the post, one at Christmas, and I went on a moody website with a scream of "Help! Anyone got any [names of several meds]?"

Stuff arrived through the post, not all from the UK. 

I had a laugh when the following Christmas, an envelope arrived from a friend in Ireland.  It had something in it.  Ooh, had she sent me more of her lovely tomato seeds?  I opened it and inside the card was a strip of thyroxine tablets. 
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: On the edge on 13 Oct 2021 11:36AM
That's really poor ote. I've read that pharmacists can dispense emergency prescriptions for up to 48 hours without a script but have never heard of anyone ever doing that so I have no idea if it's true.


I ended up without a Buprenorphine patch on for a few days as my pharmacy hadn't got my dose and needed to order it in. I'm due for my GP to send my 4 weekly script through to the chemist this Thursday and although I will still have 2 patches I think I am just going to ask for my 4 patches so that in future I am never without one should there be lack of stock again. It's a scary place to be. I'm only just on an even keel because the patches take 72 hours to build up to full plasma Buprenorphine levels so it was a difficult few days. With me, it was a pharmacy failure rather than my GP, I am so thankful for a good GP. At times I briefly consider moving areas but my GP isn't one I would choose to lose though she only works 2 days a week.


My GP surgery is a long way from pre-Covid care though. I would normally see more GP fortnightly but have seen her twice in 19 months and phone calls are just about what medications I need whereas my GP had previously been an amazing help with sorting out my mental health problems but there's no time for that now.


Well, today (Wednesday) and 8 days since I asked for a repeat prescription I still don't have it, but am promised today I will.  Alarmingly they are saying they haven't had enough deliveries to fill the scripts lately and apparently my partner's medication is not on the 'priority' listing, and because I had extra insulin for her that made the delays longer.  It means basically BP and heart tablets were not deemed priority medication or others needed them 'more'.  Not the NHS as I knew it.  The surgery has poor recognition from diabetic patients too, with nurses lecturing people to diet and take exercise quite aggressively.  I understand the point of that but telling people off, puts them off returning for checks or new issues, my partner refused to go there anymore, but I managed to get regular consultant checks instead at a nearby hospital.


It wasn't until this week I understood they had re-opened the door to people, so that meant phone calls were being ignored and people encouraged to que again at reception, but all the faces are new as are chemist staff and it's chaotic.  Obviously, regular staff have taken a break or left for the quiet life so new people have yet to get used to the system.  The chemist is a minimum 15 min wait inside and can be 30 min outside all weathers. At height of lockdown 2 hours I stood there.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 13 Oct 2021 02:31PM
It sounds like you need some big hugs there, OtE.

 :big_hugs: :big_hugs:

As for supplies of meds, two that I've been on for years as 'mood stabilisers' (quotation marks indicate my cynicism as to psychotropic medication) are also used as anti-epileptics and as immunosuppressants.  A consultant neurologist has been campaigning since the referendum to get the government to address supply problems.  To say how bad they were before brexit, pandemic etc., at one point, I had five different brands of one in a two-month supply, each with a different level of bioavailability.  I'm still getting mixed brands of the other.

I was already reducing them because they were a key factor in my ataxia, and then I halved one just before the pandemic took off.  It wasn't that I thought I'd be clinically better off without it, just that I don't want to end up going cold turkey if supplies don't get through.

That was just as well because (a) there are supply problems and (b) doctors have discovered that its immunosuppressant effects can be useful to deal with the cytokine storm in covid-19, further affecting supplies.

Never mind whether the problem is brexit, pandemic or something else, our government should have got a grip years ago with supply issues.  Being blunt, our current politicians have plenty of cronies with bigpharma and international supply influence.  Even if they messed up a lot like they did with things like ppe, it could still have been better than this mess.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: On the edge on 15 Oct 2021 02:28PM
Well, I managed to get medication after 8 days but told I will have to apply for repeats at least 9 DAYS before the other runs out.  I said this creates issues as two weekends equals 4 days where nobody dispenses anything anyway, and the week, is 5 days long and they are being a  bit pedantic about the time scales.  So by return, I reapplied the same day lol. 


Took my partner for her B12 jab and the surgery which has 4 Dr's to serve a few 1,000 patients but only provides seating for FOUR people, and you cannot arrange any appointment at the actual surgery you have to 'phone' which suggests I am going to have access issues I didn't have pre-covid because new staff had no idea I had special arrangements being deaf there. 


I think they have engaged a woman to answer calls with strict instructions to deter anyone who isn't actually at death's door, and if they are, to go to A&E not them.  I did point out A&E have just shut shop again here so?  The NHS is no more......
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 15 Oct 2021 05:25PM
Aargh.

I saw a couple of doctors at my GP surgery a couple of days ago and made a point of telling them how appreciative I am, but I'm even more appreciative now.  I wish you had a good surgery to register with.  I know hugs from Ouchers aren't a substitute for meds, appointments, access, adjustments etc., but it's all I can offer.

 :big_hugs: :big_hugs:

Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 16 Oct 2021 06:13PM
I had my fortnightly phone consult with my GP on Thursday and we decided to move to four weekly appointments. She said half their appointments are now face to face so I actually booked a face to face which is going to feel weird having not really seem her for 18 months. Could things be slowly returning to normal?


The chemist is adjacent to the surgery so a face to face makes sense as it's one excursion to see the GP and get my medication.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 16 Oct 2021 08:45PM
My GP already did telephone triage before the pandemic and I think he does video-wotsit, but I've never done that, only the telephone triage.

To be fair, I have been into my GP surgery twice in the pandemic to have flu jabs, but my annual review this year was by phone. 

I don't think things will return to normal in the sense of going back to how they were before, because so far as I can tell, the stress of aggressive patients during the pandemic plus all the extra work has led to a significant drop in GP numbers, and I think a significant proportion of those that came out of retirement to help with the pandemic will leave again within the next year or so.

It beats me how GPs cope with all the nastiness politicians and the media throw at them, and how GP surgeries like mine provide such a good service is bewildering.  Mind you, over the decades, they've been brilliant at being creative.  They don't just provide clinical services, they provide space for non-clinical services such as a benefits & finance adviser.  It's closed at the moment, but they also have a prayer room. 

Sudden thought - usually when I go to see my GP, I get offered a cuppa while I'm waiting.  That's not happening now.  I think I should complain to my MP.  At least other GPs stick to being conventional and not having enough seats or enough appointments but mine's fussing over crockery hygiene.  Harumph!

Meanwhile, I hope your face-to-face will be weird only a bit and will feel ok when you get there.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 20 Oct 2021 08:39PM
I tried to book my Covid booster online today but it asked me if I am a frontline health and care worker and I said no and it then said that I can't book my booster yet. My area is slow. I guess I am anxious as I am going to stay with my sister for 48 hours this weekend and during that time attending a grandchild's birthday celebration with 45 guests and I don't normally mix or socialise so I would have felt reassured had I been able to have my booster before this weekend.


One friend of mine has Covid for the third time and another friend has it for the second. The friend with the third bout doesn't even work but does have a school child who will be a transmitter.


I want my booster asap really so as to feel safer.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 24 Oct 2021 08:50AM
I had a text and email yesterday inviting me to book my booster so I am having mine on Wednesday.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 27 Oct 2021 03:04PM
Well, I am all boostered up now. I'm slightly dubious as I only just felt the needle break the skin and certainly didn't feel it go in my arm but I wasn't watching and am sure it was done correctly! 5 hours after the vaccine and I felt exhausted suddenly but I did increase my steroids to cope with a busy weekend away and have been back on my lower dose for the third day now so it could be the drop in steroids as 5 hours sounds like a flipping quick reaction to a vaccine though feeling tired is the most common vaccine side effect.


My local area which is rural has a current 50% increase on the previous highest record numbers of positive cases which is massive. An ICU nurse from the city hospital though goes to my church and there are only a couple of Covid cases in ICU and cases on only one medical ward and they are all young adults to middle aged almost all of which have not been vaccinated so the vaccines do seem to be keeping people out of hospital though case rates are sky high. I do feel safer having had the booster.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 27 Oct 2021 04:02PM
I'm jealous!

Well, only a bit because I didn't have my second jab until June so I'm not due my booster yet.

Oh hang on, does that mean we can't get rid of you?  Oh well, maybe you'll catch something else instead.  Had you thought of some new mutation of something old?  Something with really pretty spots to match the flowers on your coffin?

Joking apart, I'm glad you're triple-jabbed now.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 28 Oct 2021 12:35AM
Flowers on my coffin what a lovely thought. I will have to update my funeral plan!  :f_laugh:
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 28 Oct 2021 01:47PM
I don't want a funeral as such, but if someone decides to give me a send-off instead of just shipping my body off to the crem, I hope it'll be brief, with lots of humour and, most importantly, a good party after for those that turn up.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 28 Oct 2021 06:34PM
I expect my send off will be at the crem during the alloted 20 minutes. Hopefully whoever attends will slope off to the pub afterwards. My mother was an avid environmentalist so we deliberately chose a recycled cardboard floral coffin for her cremation thinking she'd have been mortified (I realise she already was) had she thought a tree had died to be burned with her. However that was quite a bit dearer than the cheapest plywood coffin! As I have prepaid my crematorium funeral I suspect my coffin will be cheap plywood, I can't see anyone paying extra to have floral cardboard. Aren't we a cheerful pair 🤣
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 28 Oct 2021 06:37PM
It's been confirmed that vaccines only protect yourself rather than others
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59077036
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: ditchdwellers on 29 Oct 2021 09:11AM
I'm pleased you've had the booster too Fiz. How are you feeling now?


The latest news on transmission between vaccinated people in the same household is interesting. I regularly look after my grandchildren and neither my son or daughter in law is vaccinated. I'm not entirely sure the reasoning they have chosen not to be, however I think my daughter in law is seriously considering it. This latest news may change their minds. It certainly makes me very wary about going there every week as I would never forgive myself if I inadvertently passed Covid onto them.


I feel like we're all caught in a very difficult position where unless we put our lives completely on hold, then we won't be able to do anything. All I can do is take precautions, wear a mask in public places, and keep washing my hands. And hope everyone else does the same.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 29 Oct 2021 12:47PM
I think the way the statistics on vaccinated people passing on the virus are presented in the media is unhelpful, which can cause people to underestimate some risks or misperceive what the risks are.

Here's how I see it.

Vaccination is often presented as if it stops you getting infected, whereas it doesn't prevent it, it reduces the risk of it, that risk varying according to virus variant, and generally, but not always, dramatically reduces the severity of symptoms and risk of dying.  In particular, it can increase the likelihood that if you get it, you will be symptomless.

Like anyone else, if you're not infected, then you're not passing the virus on in the most common ways of doing so, eg. spewing forth infected matter from your lungs, or via what you touch after coughing etc.  So in terms of proportion of a period of time that you'll be infected, you're a risk to others in that way for less time, e.g. fewer months in the year.

But people may significantly underestimate the risk they pose in terms of being infected and infecting others. 

People may not fully take on board that if vaccinated they can still be infected and thus pass on the virus.  Further, they may not fully take on board that having the vaccine may increase the risk of their not having any symptoms or any recognisable symptoms.  Thus they may be more likely to take less care and thus increase the likelihood of passing the virus on to others.

Meanwhile, even if not infected, you can still pass it on via what I'll call 'dirty hands' or 'ordinary poor hygiene' just as you can pass on a tummy bug without catching it yourself and I don't think that's being emphasised as much so people who are vaccinated may also grow careless about that.

Thus, as I see it, statistically having the vaccine reduces your risk of passing on the virus in terms of amount of time you yourself are infected, but that has to be offset against people being more likely to suppose that if they don't have symptoms they're not infected, and against people being more careless about general cleanliness than they would have been if not vaccinated.

That being said, history shows that having a lot of people vaccinated can contribute to protecting unvaccinated people, because the prevalence or non-prevalence of a virus can affect the risk of its mutating and if it does, how it mutates.  But that's all part of the complex issue of herd immunity, which certain politicians and spads have effectively mutated the meaning of so as to exclude from the term the concept of herd immunity by vaccine.  I don't usually wish people dead but I have found several times during the pandemic wishing certain proponents of their notion of herd immunity, which seems to be 'let the weak die', would drop dead themselves. 

Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: ditchdwellers on 03 Nov 2021 11:03AM
My son has Covid. Neither he nor his wife have been vaccinated, I'm not sur why they have refused but things got a bit 'heated' when my husband tried talking to him about it so we didn't probe any further.
They are currently isolating along with their three children, all under 10 including a three month baby.


Apparently my son just feels like he has flu has at the moment and I'm hoping it doesn't get any worse or any family members get it.


I was there exactly a week ago looking after the children for the afternoon. I've been jabbed and boostered so hopefully I'll be ok and my husband has only spoken to our son on the phone for the last couple of weeks with no direct contact. He did pop in to see the grandchildren when he dropped me off but he had to shoot off so it was a flying visit. He's been double jabbed.


I'm very worried about them all. I wish they had been vaccinated.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 03 Nov 2021 12:51PM
I hope none of them gets more than flu-like.

 :big_hugs:
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 03 Nov 2021 01:36PM
 :f_hug:


Apparently most of the people in hospital with Covid are young adults to middle aged who are unvaccinated l hope some reassurance for you DD is that none are in ICU currently here at least.


The most common symptoms in children is a temperature and diarrhoea but most children who get Covid don't have any symptoms at all thankfully.


Hoping that the baby in particular doesn't get it. I know as a parent and grandparent how worrying it is when close family are affected like this  :f_hug:
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 13 Nov 2021 04:53PM
How's your son and his family DD? Has he recovered now? Did the children get it?
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: ditchdwellers on 14 Nov 2021 06:00PM
Thank you for asking Fiz. Thankfully, they all seem pretty well.
My son still feels a little rundown and hopefully there won't be any long lasting effects. The baby had it too, only mildly, and was just grizzly for a few days. The others escaped unscathed!


I sent them up a goody bag full of books, activities and treats to help see them through isolation. I was careful to send it over by taxi, having warned the driver they had Covid. I asked him to ring the doorbell, leave the bag, and run away! He said it took him back to his childhood  :f_laugh:
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 14 Nov 2021 06:16PM
That was wise advise DD. I found it quite emotionally traumatic when my son and family had Covid. Parking outside a house with all curtains closed, placing casseroles etc on the doorstep, knocking then standing well away felt eerie and surreal.


My youngest grandaughter almost certainly had Covid along with her family though they didn't test her. She had diarrhoea the classic childhood symptom and her 3yo sister had that and a temperature and both felt unwell. Glad they are over it. I guess as they got over it fine they haven't changed their minds about the vaccines?
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: ditchdwellers on 15 Nov 2021 10:13AM
Unfortunately not. They don't read papers or news websites, and I think they they get most of their information from social media or YouTube. I despair with them at times and we have have had many discussions with them over the years regarding their lack of awareness of current affairs. They don't even listen to the radio!


I don't think we'll ever change them. Maybe they will grow more socially and internationally aware as they get older, or maybe that's just me wishful thinking.


I'm sorry to hear your family were affected by Covid too. I hope there are no long lasting effects for any of them?
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 15 Nov 2021 10:51AM
No, thankfully the two children and their families who had Covid have all recovered fine. My daughter and her partner are frontline NHS workers so it was fairly inevitable they'd get it. My daughter's partner received his + test a couple of hours after having his first vaccine so was sent home from work. The symptoms started that evening. He'd had his weekly PCR earlier that day. His was like flu. My eldest son's partner had it the worst hence driving meals to them, she said she knew she'd get it badly as her immune system is rubbish but she hasn't been left with long Covid so they're all fine. The son in Wales and his wife have escaped it, their lockdowns were far stricter than ours. Local was defined as walking distance so that's how close to home you had to stay when exercising whereas here people were travelling a hundred miles to go for a walk because local means one thing to one person and another thing to someone else! I think Wales" restrictions were better than ours.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 19 Nov 2021 04:12PM
I've just been reading about the fourth wave of Covid and the restrictions some European countries have placed on the unvaccinated. Many won't allow the unvaccinated in any social venues such as shops, caf├ęs, cinemas etc or on public transport. One European country that has an NHS style health service has started implementing charges for health care for patients admitted with Covid and all of the following implications and further health problems for the unvaccinated. According to a yougov poll 72% of UK citizens support the same actions here. That's a high number.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 19 Nov 2021 09:38PM
Quote
One European country that has an NHS style health service has started implementing charges for health care for patients admitted with Covid

I thought it wouldn't be long before other countries started following Singapore's lead in this, but I hadn't expected any EU countries to be so quick off the mark. 

I feel conflicted because my knee-jerk emotional reaction is that it seems fair, but it took only moments for my brain to scream "Thin end of the wedge!" Today, fees for covid care if you're unvaccinated, tomorrow, what?  Fees for STD treatment if you're not celibate?  Fees for treatment following a road traffic accident if it is shown that you weren't wearing a seatbelt or something?

I suppose the compromise would be to give priority to vaccinated people, but then think of whether that should apply to everyone.  If not, which exemptions?  Here, we've all seen the irrational design and irrational implementation of health categorisation for social security purposes.

Oh well, if applied here, it would keep the government happy as it finishes off privatising the NHS, setting a precedent for reducing supposedly universal healthcare (and yes, I know there are already vast unfairnesses) to limits that make for popular soundbites and save costs.

I feel about this the way I do about the 'two child rule' for benefits.  On the surface, it sounds reasonable.  If you can't afford children, don't have them.  In reality, that takes effect as punishing the children for what is deemed to be wrong behaviour by their parents.  It also punishes people who make the 'wrong' decisions even where they may have what we'd consider reasonable excuses if we were in their shoes, but are encouraged to think of as unreasonable when we're not.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 21 Nov 2021 10:28AM
My sister and niece both have Covid currently. I think my niece is doing okay with it but my sister is pretty poorly. Hopefully milder than it would have been if they weren't vaccinated.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 30 Nov 2021 11:42PM
Since writing that the rest of their family tested positive and they are all struggling with recovery to varying degrees. My sister finds it hard because she now has days when she feels a bit better and is able to cook or whatever and other days she is so fatigued that making a drink is a struggle. Thankfully, as they are all wiped with it, they have found a dog walker for their dog.


I was in the chemist today and the lady ahead of me bought a hoard of cold and flu relief type items for a whole family who are quite poorly and incapacitated by Covid. The whole family are all full vaccinated and had their boosters but have all caught Covid anyway. I know so many fully vaccinated people who have Covid right now I am wondering if the protection it gives is far less than the vaccine manufacturers state.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 01 Dec 2021 03:39AM
I thought these vaccines were supposed to be like other vaccines - teach your body to recognise a virus by giving it dead virus or damaged virus or imitation virus, so that your body can fight that virus as effectively as if it had previously been infected by it, meaning that some people won't get symptoms, some will get milder symptoms than otherwise, and some immune systems still won't be able to fight it off. 

Are these new vaccines supposed to be better than other sorts of vaccines?  In what way?  I hadn't picked up on any statements by the manufacturers about this but then maybe I missed them because I wasn't expecting there to be any.  I think most of what I've read has been focussing on the claimed reduction in need for intensive care by vaccinated people who become infected.



Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Fiz on 01 Dec 2021 11:13AM
Apparently the Asda-Vinegar and another vaccine I can't remember the name of introduce an extremely mild form of the virus to build up antibodies. The Pfizer and Moderna apparently alter the structure of the cell so as to resist the virus entering it and this is a new innovative method of vaccines. There's a third type, Johnson and Johnson being one but I am not read up on the methodology behind them so they all work differently.


From what I am hearing, far more people have or are recovering very slowly from the virus having had it badly than at any stage before in the pandemic. When I say have it badly, I don't mean they need hospital but it's like full blown nasty flu when they're in bed "thinking they're dying" as in the phrase used rather than they actually think they're dying. Early in the pandemic it seemed there were large numbers seriously ill and dying in hospitals, some people were very unwell with it at home and a lot had it mildly and just felt pretty rough but could function. I'm not hearing of anyone currently that just feels pretty rough and can function any more when they get it, even fit healthy people are bedridden. My bil has only seen a GP once since his 18th birthday and has never been off work sick but was in bed feeling extremely ill with it a couple of weeks ago and he's fully vaccinated. It worries me personally. Not that I think I would die or need hospital if I caught it but I don't have a support network, live alone and know no one to help with the dog and have no idea how I would manage if I was very ill at home.


I think the Guardian writer is right, we all need to be more careful and cautious and I think we should be thinking of a new vaccine because the current ones appear ineffective with the current variants. I do get the argument we'll always need new vaccines due to evolving viruses but still think it's necessary as I think we're looking at annual vaccinations for the foreseeable. Given the amount of currently very unwell people, I really hope that it doesn't ignite into very seriously ill and needing hospital again. I still think most people in hospital with Covid are the unvaccinated so the vaccines must reduce the severity of the virus to an extent even now but not as much as it did previously.


My dd has stated she will accept annual vaccinations only from now on with this booster being it now for the next year but apparently the NHS are only kicking out employees who haven't had the initial 2 vaccines from April, they're not insisting NHS workers have to have boosters even though it's known the vaccines effectiveness wanes so I don't think they'll lose many employees in April when it becomes mandatory in the NHS.
Title: Re: Covid jab
Post by: Sunny Clouds on 01 Dec 2021 12:16PM
That's a lot of food for thought.

I agree we're probably going to have to be thinking of something like the annual flu vaccine.  I don't know how willing people will be to take it up.  The take up, I think, of flu jabs amongst older people has been quite good in the past, although I've never looked at the figures, so that is just my perception.  But there's been so much relentless anti-vax stuff that I think there's a very widespread resistance to vaccination even amongst people who, a couple of years ago, wouldn't have thought twice about having one.

I take on board what you say about bedridden, but if those are people that previously would have been on ventilators, then that to me still seems like an improvement if one's thinking in terms of survival.

On the other hand, is what such people are going through getting the attention it needs in terms of awareness and support?  As I type this, I'm not convinced it is.

That being said, something that's bugged me throughout this relates to long covid.  It became apparent quite early in the pandemic and groups of people with it were getting together to exchange information, research it, then liaise with people with other sorts of conditions involving long-term fatigue and/or post-viral conditions.  That seemed to be progressing then went relatively quiet.

I'm afraid I'm cynical enough (and I hope I'm wrong) to think that except for a bit of aftercare for the most ill, a lot will find themselves in the same position as those with a range of other conditions, most notably ME/CFS, that are often put down to 'all in the mind' or even 'faking it'.  This is an important thing to do in any context where they can be expensive and, I believe, originates in America in terms of healthcare, and also has roots in a variety of countries, including ours, that have done the sort of things our governments have with sickness/disability benefits, e.g. Australia, Canada etc.

Tell people they're faking it, imagining it, exaggerating it and you can refuse to spend money on them

So I then turn back to 'very nasty flu at home' version of the virus.  Will that be adequately acknowledged and supported?

It doesn't help that it's known that there's a nastier version of the common cold going round, and also flu's back with the possibility of new mutations and under-vaccination.  How are people supposed to know which they've got, and if they do, get the right help?

Then add in all the nastiness of the benefits system which encourages people to 'man up' and go to work if they have a job and hey presto, more spreading.

Picking up on this

Quote
It worries me personally. Not that I think I would die or need hospital if I caught it but I don't have a support network, live alone and know no one to help with the dog and have no idea how I would manage if I was very ill at home.

I have a bit of a support network, but not much of one.  I worry about things even as simple as whether, if I was in hospital,  I'd be able to contact a neighbour to go round and sort out the heating etc., and to sort out anti-burglar stuff like making sure my light timers were on and my radio batteries replenished.  (I reckon my radio's a bigger burglar deterrent than my alarm.)

Having had postviral fatigue accepted and recognised twice and then later had it again and had it dismissed as 'retarded depression', I see the difference it makes what labels people stick on you. 

I'm lucky in one respect - where I live, there's a community network you can ask for help.  It also gets extended informally.  But I don't know how much I could rely on it or for how long.

I wonder whether those of us with chronic disabilities have a greater awareness than many (but far from all) others of the difficulties of dealing with debilitating conditions with inadequate support, which, added to our potentially increased vulnerability (depending on our underlying conditions) makes the thought of things like this very anxiety-inducing.

I hope this doesn't come out wrong, but whilst I wish you didn't feel the way you do, knowing you feel that way reminds me I'm not alone with some of my worries about it, which helps me a little. 

 :f_hug: