Author Topic: Old age deadly?  (Read 691 times)

JLR2

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Old age deadly?
« on: 29 Sep 2022 08:16PM »
We are being told through the news channels that Queen Elisabeth (1/11)  died of old age, who in their right mind believes that?  I have my own suspicions and I'm sure the new King would not want me to make them known publicly.

Monic1511

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Re: Old age deadly?
« Reply #1 on: 29 Sep 2022 08:32PM »
That’s what’s on the death certificate. Since it’s a public document and therefore open to conspiracy theorists and everyone else the doctor probably thought that was easiest. 


Trolls will troll anyway

Sunny Clouds

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Re: Old age deadly?
« Reply #2 on: 29 Sep 2022 09:15PM »
Death certificates are a pain and controversial anyway.  Look how the whole issue of 'cause of death' has been the focus of argument in relation to covid-19.

I've watched videos on Youtube that I'd characterise thus...

Video by expert 1.  Look at the UK death figures for covid-19.  They say lots of people died.  But if you look at the actual figures, lots of them died of other causes as well, so they'd have died anyway, it wasn't really the covid-19 that killed them.

Video by expert 2.  Yes, but just because there's more than one cause doesn't mean they'd have died so soon from the other named cause if they hadn't caught covid-19.

Sundry videos by other experts.  Yes, but, no, but...

The trouble is that these things aren't neat and tidy, unless you want to have a very detailed post mortem for every death.

Me just ruminating hypothetically.  Someone starts having paranoid delusions.  They think they're being poisoned and stop eating.  They become very malnourished.  Hmm, will they die of it?  If so, have they died of 'starvation' or 'psychosis'.   Ah, but before they simply waste away, they get a nasty infection and die.  Would it have killed them if they hadn't been so close to death from starvation?  Or the other way round?  Did they die of starvation and with an infection, or of an infection and with starvation, or....(I'm glad I don't have to fill out death certificates)

 
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Sunny Clouds

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Re: Old age deadly?
« Reply #3 on: 29 Sep 2022 09:16PM »
Anyway, so long as cats continue to rule the world, we won't be able to put the real causes of death on certificates.  "Bumped off in night by cat assassin for favouring dogs."   :f_whistle:
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JLR2

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Re: Old age deadly?
« Reply #4 on: 29 Sep 2022 09:17PM »
I do not believe it is legal for a doctor to put anything other than the actual cause of death on a death certificate and to the best of my knowledge old age in itself does not kill but rather illness and all illnesses have their medical descriptions. Even tonight I was reading of a woman living in a care home who has just been celebrating her 109th birthday, what happened to auld age killing her? 

JLR2

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Re: Old age deadly?
« Reply #5 on: 29 Sep 2022 09:28PM »
If it can be said, and going by the certification of Elizabeth 1/2's it has been, that old age can kill will there in future be death certificates stating cause of death of a far younger people stating they died of 'young age'?   Old age as the sole term for a death certificate is a nonsense and I'm sure Charles 3 knows it.


This 'Old age' term being used on the certificate would not surprise me to be found to be the first time in British history such a term was used for such a purpose. Charles 3 will not mind though will he, he's King and that's all that'll matter to him, well that and being sure his pen won't be a leaky one again.
« Last Edit: 30 Sep 2022 07:36AM by JLR2 »

Sunny Clouds

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Re: Old age deadly?
« Reply #6 on: 29 Sep 2022 10:39PM »
The ONS guidance for doctors on completing death certificates makes it clear that old age can be given as a cause of death.  I've only got a very basic  pdf reader, so I can't copy and paste.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1062236/Guidance_for_Doctors_completing_medical_certificates_Mar_22.pdf

(I don't know if that will work as a link the way I've done it, but if not, you should be able to find it by doing a search for it.)

A rather shortened summary can  be found in the Guardian

"Old age is acceptable if the doctor certifying death has cared for the patient for a long time, was not aware of any disease or injury that contributed to death and had observed a gradual decline in the person’s general health and functioning.

(I'm an obsessive problem-solver, so feel free to ignore any suggestions or solutions I offer, even if they sound terribly insistent.)

JLR2

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Re: Old age deadly?
« Reply #7 on: 30 Sep 2022 07:42AM »
Thanks for that explanation regarding other death certificates showing old age as cause of death Sunny. Without wanting to go on and on about this I would only add so much as to say I still have the feeling that old age should not be the only explanation of cause of death on a death certificate. Perhaps in the case of the Queen it could have added heart failure, as in her heart stopped rather than a heart attack.

lankou

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Re: Old age deadly?
« Reply #8 on: 30 Sep 2022 09:26AM »
In my case it will be, large medical file will find out at post-mortem.

ditchdwellers

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Re: Old age deadly?
« Reply #9 on: 30 Sep 2022 11:08AM »
My father apparently died of pneumonia. Not the cancer that had just about reached every part of his body. I found that very strange.

Sunny Clouds

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Re: Old age deadly?
« Reply #10 on: 30 Sep 2022 02:58PM »
My father apparently died of pneumonia. Not the cancer that had just about reached every part of his body. I found that very strange.

Whilst I don't know what happened to your father, I can envisage that it would be possible for someone with late stage cancer, which would have killed them shortly, to be killed by something else first.

To give a vivid analogy...

I could be crossing a road, start to have a heart attack, collapse and be run over and killed by a lorry crushing my head and chest.  It may be that the heart attack was such that if the lorry hadn't killed me, the heart attack would have done so maybe a few hours later, maybe even just minutes later, but it would still be the lorry that killed me.

I suppose you could argue that it was having the heart attack that caused me to fall and that if I hadn't fallen, I wouldn't have been run over, therefore it was the heart attack that killed me, but that would be the sort of causation people think of in terms of negligence actions rather than immediate cause of death.

This is why I'd never be able to fill in death certificates.  It would fry my brain as much as benefits forms.

Benefits form analogy...

I remember a question about preparing food.  Ah, but what was the problem?  The attentional memory problems that are a feature of some sorts of bipolar?  The alternating paralytic inactivity of some phases of bipolar and the dash round trying to get everything done of other phases?  The tremor from my ataxia?  The failure to judge distances between knife and food or whatever because of my vision? Etc., etc.

I think causes of death on forms could be much better shown, but only by re-designing the forms.  (I've never examined one closely, only seen quick glimpses of them on videos.)  Even then they'll still be problematic and I think that often professional opinion rather than absolute certitude will always be a significant factor.
« Last Edit: 30 Sep 2022 04:46PM by Sunny Clouds »
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Monic1511

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Re: Old age deadly?
« Reply #11 on: 30 Sep 2022 06:41PM »
The guidance is for England and Wales, will need to look for the Scottish guidance as the law is different here

Sunny Clouds

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Re: Old age deadly?
« Reply #12 on: 30 Sep 2022 07:00PM »
The guidance is for England and Wales, will need to look for the Scottish guidance as the law is different here

That's because you need categories like "Dropped dead with shock when a gust of wind in the freezing northern weather lifted his kilt and his unclad bits fell off."

Mind you, I'm still trying to find the bit in the guidance for E&W "Dropped dead of several simultaneous causes because pre-war stiff-upper-lip stoicism prevented the deceased from bothering their doctor."

Not that I'd ever engage in regional stereotyping, you understand...

 :f_whistle:
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Sunny Clouds

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Re: Old age deadly?
« Reply #13 on: 30 Sep 2022 07:17PM »
On a serious note, I'd be interested in knowing whether the Scottish guidance on death certificates and old age is the same or different.
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Sunshine Meadows

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Re: Old age deadly?
« Reply #14 on: 01 Oct 2022 01:21PM »
https://www.sehd.scot.nhs.uk/cmo/CMO(2018)11.pdf


page 21


5.4 Use of “old age” alone “Old age” or “frailty due to old age” should only be given as the sole cause of death when all of the following criteria have been met. These are:  The patient is 80 years or older and all the condition listed below are met  You have personally or your clinical team have cared for the deceased over a long period (years, or many months)  You have observed a gradual decline in your patient's general health and functioning  You are not aware of any identifiable disease or injury that contributed to the death  You are certain that there is no other reason that the death should be reported to the PF


I suppose there is a difference between old worn out and frail, and old and ill. Being defined as dying from old age suggests a good level of medical and domestic care, the ability to go to the toilet and feed themselves etc. More usually it will probably be death after a fall, illness of chronic condition. To me it tells me the Queen lived well and also kept herself as heathy as possible.